Suspension Update

[callison]

I'm with Rich on this one. Much as I would like to have optimized suspension, I don't ride fast enough to really need it. I certainly can't afford to have my transportation to work in someone's shop for an extended period of time either. If I've gotten slow and cautious, I'll just blame it on advancing seniority. (52 years next month).

 

Quick performance tip: Loosing ten pounds of body weight is equivalent to $1500 worth of titanium fasteners. Let's see, If I lose 50 lbs, that ought to be enough to convince my wife I've saved enough to pay for an MGS01.

[Lex]

John,

 

I think I was told (not 100% sure) the stock spring is 0.7 Kg/ Cm. The most common replacement is a 0.9 Kg like Mike used. I'm not sure what you would use, LE selected a 1.05 Kg spring for me at 260 Lb, that puts you right in the middle of Mike and I.

 

Another good source for springs in Race Tech.

 

http://www.race-tech.com/

 

Carl,

 

I think you are missing the point, not improving your suspension at all because you don't want to go all the way to a full re-spring/ re-valve is like not sending your kid to kindergarten because the little one will not go on to get a PhD. The biggest gains in anything come at the start. The next time you change your fork oil have a set of 0.9 Kg springs around and swap them. You'll get the biggest part of the improvement Mike and I got for 25% of what we spent on our forks.

 

I'll put it another way, if the stock spring is a 0.7 and the replacement is a 0.9 that is about 29% stiffer. How much difference do you think 29% more horsepower would make? That is how far off the stock spring is from the ideal. Add the excessive preload and the poor quality of the spring (they seem to sack pretty quickly) and I'll bet your see a very large improvement with just the springs. A very good "bang for the buck" ratio. Play around with fork oil viscosity and level and you will very possibly find more improvement.

 

Lex

[docc]

Juicing up the springs seems like good advice. I'm wonderng, then, if the rear will be all out of sorts? Can I get a better spring for my "sux?" (Oh, it's true - I looked very closely and - bummer - It's not a WP, but "Sachs."

 

Did anyone really get a WP rear shock??

[Guest Flagon]

I've never ever seen a WP rear suspension on any 2001 (red/gray) or 2002 (red or black) Le Mans that I have seen.

 

Ciao,Francesco.

[al_roethlisberger]

So here's a couple questions:

 

With the pre-2003 forks, it appears from the fork-caps that Compression damping is in the left leg, with Rebound damping on the right. Have we ever confirmed definitively if this is true, or is it that Compression damping is only *adjustable* on the left, and similarly Rebound is only adjustable on the right??

 

Also, related... once LE reworks the shocks, is rebound and compression damping being performed equally on both legs, and are they both now adjustable?

 

al

[al_roethlisberger]

Ahh, so I just called Lindeman Engineering for a quick chat now that they have done a handful of the Marz forks on the V11 Sports/LeMans... so I think I've answered my own question

 

Indeed Compression-damping and Rebound-damping is happening only in one leg each, and comp or rebound is only adjustable in each leg. This is true both prior and post their modifications. So that doesn't change.

 

Is it a problem? They say that after their modifications to valving and spring-rates... not really. Now that they've done quite a few, the results have been quite good.

 

Also, I asked their thoughts about perhaps just skipping the modifications, and perhaps springing for some Ohlins. Of course one has to factor-in their own motivation to drum-up business ...but their comments were that the $2000 "Road & Track" aftermarket Ohlins weren't really that superior a component, and that I'd probably be best served just modifying the stock setup with their work... as Lex, et al have done. He stated that the results should be quite close.

 

He pointed out that if one sprung for the high-end Ohlins race products, you would indeed note a significant difference, but the mass-market stuff was comparable with most other vendors once any of them were properly setup and dialed-in. His experience and many friends that have installed these forks didn't notice a significant difference from what they have achieved in the shop.

 

...but as always, YMMV

 

 

They also didn't recommend springing for the Nitride coating. He said it was somewhat overkill, although admittedly it is a bit more slippery, thus helping avoid "stick-tion". But I think his impression was that it was more fashion for a street-bike than anything else...

 

Their current turnaround is one week for just the spring and revalve. And if you don't want to remove your own forks, they charge $75.

 

al

[dlaing]

I did order a Penske rear shock last week and I will be doing a follow up after I install it.

Hey Mike,

Did you install the Penske, yet?

Looking forward to your review.

I am trying to decide between Works, Penske, and Ohlins.

My wallet says Works.

My heart says Ohlins.

My brain says Peske.

[Mike Stewart]

David,

 

The Penske has not arrived yet, looks like the 3 week wait is turning out to be more like 6 weeks plus. My 00 V11S is in the shop anyway and I do not know when it will be finished up either.

 

I would still go with the Penske! But wait till I try it out.

 

Mike

[docc]

So, now that we know Lindeman has the experience to rework our marzocchis reliably, who can rework this Sachs unit? Tell me it's not a throw away!

 

At 160 pounds the rear is not too bad (bad, but not TOO bad ) Until I loaded the Tekno bags for the mountains. The racks carry them BEHIND the axle and really lift the front.

 

"Boing" is not a performance term!

[dlaing]

I have heard the Sachs do not last long, so it may not be worth pouring money into them. However, I find the damping works well enough, so perhaps, they just need a re-spring.

[Mike Stewart]

After having the Sach shock revalved/ resprung and fitted with a replaceable shaft seal at LE, I was still not happy with the performance of the Sach unit. Save yourself the headache and go with the Ohlins or Penske. You will be money ahead of the game! Put the Sach unit on ebay or use it as a boat anchor....

 

Now after making adjustments to the Ohlins suspension on the Rosso, I can say that the suspension is better than what LE could do for my V11Sport. The Rosso rear suspension is still a little harsh but seems great at speed. I never had to worry that the rear end was going to come out from under me when the road surfaces got rough. The bike never went wide. Such a difference from my 00 V11Sport.

 

Now I need to figure out how to make my V11 Sport handle as well. The first step is to replace the rear shock with the Penske I have on order. Next would be to lengthen the Penske shock (it is adjustable) to raise the rear of the V11 in order to quicken the steering head angle. I would like to have the head angle at 25 degrees. Offset head bearings may also be needed to reach the 25 degree goal. Just as a note, the rear end of my Rosso is about 1 inch. taller than my 00 V11 Sport.

 

The pro and cons of the Ohlin's and Penske are:

 

Pro Ohlins has easier spring preload adjustment with the remote unit.

Con Ohlins may need to be revalved and sprung for your weight.

 

Pro Penske is sprung and valved to your weight.

Pro Penske weights less

Pro Penske cost less

Pro Made in the USA!

Con A pain to adjust the spring preload.

 

 

If I have left anything out just add to the list!

 

Mike

[al_roethlisberger]

So Mike, here's what I am really interested in: How well does the '03 Ohlins front suspension compare with the LE tweaked Marz forks on the Sport?

 

I had already planned to replace the rear with a Penske or Ohlins one day, but am on the fence about having LE rebuild '02 Marz front forks until I hear a good report comparing/contrasting the performance of the two from someone that has ridden both.

 

And that would be you

 

 

al

[Mike Stewart]

Al,

 

You will have to wait till I get my 00 bike back from the shop so I can install the Penske shock. It is hard to tell how the front forks work when the rear shock isn't working up to snuff. I would still prefer a fork that has adjustable preload, compression and rebound dampening for fine tuning. I just hope I can get my 00 V11Sport to handle like my Rosso (Yes, I am very pleased on how it handles). I now feel good about writing a shootout between the Aprilia Falco and the Rosso! Stay tuned....

 

Mike

[Guest IanJ]

So, Al, I noticed that your question about fork leg functions was never answered. According to the service manual (I was thumbing through last night, looking for spring rates -- not in there), the left leg does compression only, and the right leg does rebound only. They're to be disassembled and refurbished separately so as not to mix parts.

 

Also, probably of interest to no one but myself, I'll be getting a new rear spring some time soon, but keeping the Sachs shock, since I've been happy with the damping, just the spring isn't stiff enough. I was thinking about replacing the front springs, but realized that they don't usually present anywhere near the problem that the rear does. Of course, I'm also happily riding a Ninja 250 with nearly the stock suspension, and only aware of its shortcomings under heavy braking (where I can easily bottom the front forks, making hard braking on uneven pavement an adventure in brake modulation).

[Guest IanJ]

Ok, that's odd, half of my previous post dissappeared, and this is IanJ, not dlaing. Is it a bug, or a feature?

 

The first half of my last post was:

 

So, Al, I noticed that your question about fork leg functions was never answered. According to the service manual (I was thumbing through last night, looking for spring rates -- not in there), the left leg does compression only, and the right leg does rebound only. They're to be disassembled and refurbished separately so as not to mix parts.

 

(edit follows)

 

I just called Eric(?) at LE Suspension, and it sounds like they've got me covered. Based on the fact that my rear spring is white, Eric said I probably have a WP rear shock. I'm going to take a picture of it tonight and send it to LE, to see if they can confirm that. I'll be interested to know that, partially because I haven't yet heard a confirmed story of anyone with a stock WP shock on these bikes.