Avgas and the oxy sencer

[Lucky Phil]

10 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

You have a different way of looking at this than I do.

That you have never enjoyed a peaky powerplant is your opinion. But your opinion on that doesn't mean someone else who does enjoy a peaky power plant is wrong.

As to the width of the V11's power, ours delivers very usable power from 3,000 rpms to over 7,000 rpms. That is, it delivers good power for around 2/3's of it rpm range (looking at it as from idle (around 1200 rpms) to redline. Compared to the previously mentioned FZR 400, which delivers good power for around 1/3 of its rpm range. You are looking at it as "how many rpms does it make good power in. And that is one aspect. But another, possibly better metric is to look at it by how much of its available rpms does it make good power in. And I don't know about your V11, but the wife's V11 makes good power from 3,000 rpm to over 7,000 rpm.

A great example of it is way back when I was riding the wife's V11 with a couple friends. One was on a new R1 (new at the time, this was probably 20 years ago when the R1 was new), he was a buddy I roadraced with. After a while he said to me he was stunned at how badly the V11 would pull him out of corners. His R1 had way more power than the V11 had, but to use that power he had to really rev the engine. Where as the V11 seemd to pull hard out of the corners without effort, no extra revs required. Could an R1 go faster than a V11? Sure. But not without bringing the revs up.

I have ridden a number of small displacement streetbikes, bikes like the Ninja 250 and Eliminator 250, the aforementioned FZR 400, and others. They were all peaky, and they were all good fun to ride, especially on a twisty road.

And yeah, when you have 200+ hp you need to worry about making it usable. A V11 doesn't have that problem.

I didn't say those that enjoy a peaky power band are wrong I said "I" found it of less utility and not any fun same as road racer these days. Thats what they all like about the Triumph engine in Moto2 now, more torque. As for comparing a V11 to and FZR 400 well that's just silly and the reason I used a GSXR1100 as an example.

The "my buddy says" stuff I won't comment on.

Ciao  

[docc]

On 10/27/2020 at 4:29 AM, pete roper said:

. . .  BLOODY AWESOME  . . . delivery . . . extraordinary from nothing to Blurp, Blurp, Blurp!

Blasting across West Texas at 'Faster than F*ck' speeds was effortless, riding it in the CA Canyons was a 'Stick it in third and gun it'.

 

That. Right there. What my Sport wants to be when it grows up . . .

[Shepflylow]

Hi there. I’ll return to my original question—maybe I will restate it. I would like to use ethanol free gas. In California that means running avgas which has a small amount of lead. Should I remove the cat (I don’t want to damage it) and if I do so will I need to tune the engine? If so, does anyone have a recommendation for a tuner kit (chip, etc.)? 
 

I did get my new tank internally coated to prevent the decals from bubbling (thank you Phil). This is my only fuel injected bike and it would be more convenient to use the same gas as in my older carburetor-equipped bikes that run very well on ethanol free gas.

[Lucky Phil]

31 minutes ago, Shepflylow said:

Hi there. I’ll return to my original question—maybe I will restate it. I would like to use ethanol free gas. In California that means running avgas which has a small amount of lead. Should I remove the cat (I don’t want to damage it) and if I do so will I need to tune the engine? If so, does anyone have a recommendation for a tuner kit (chip, etc.)? 
 

I did get my new tank internally coated to prevent the decals from bubbling (thank you Phil). This is my only fuel injected bike and it would be more convenient to use the same gas as in my older carburetor-equipped bikes that run very well on ethanol free gas.

Yes running leaded fuel will render the cat useless. Retune? for general day to day running probably not although don't be surprised if it's harder to start and a bit flat spotty warming up in cool weather. Avgas is less volatile than pump gas so in cooler conditions with a cold engine it doesn't carburate as well. I understand your reasons for using it but it's not an ideal solution for a road bike.

Ciao 

[MartyNZ]

When I was a young apprentice, I "salvaged" a 25litre drum of 100/130 (green Avgas) from a DC3 going into maintenance, and put it in my Honda CB450.

It felt faster, so I tested it. It reached 1000rpm more in top gear at the bend on Harewood Road on 100/130 than the "96 Super" of the time. I previously thought that higher octane was only worthwhile with higher compression or a blower, but there it was going faster.

Obviously there was some other difference than just octane rating for this fuel to give noticably more power. I had just fitted new 1st oversize pistons and rings, and XS650 cans, but otherwise the 450 was standard.

I know that Avgas has less volatiles to avoid boil-off and vapor lock at altitude, and I assume higher calorific value ingredients which made such a noticable difference.

Note that avgas is not the same as 100 octane service station pump fuel.

As for using 100/130 Avgas in a V11, I agree with the comments that the TEL additive, even in the LL (low lead) variant, will harm a catalytic converter and oxygen sensor if fitted. If not fitted, no harm to the engine, and possibly more power.

[GuzziMoto]

I would not run avgas in a V11. But if you want to, it is your bike. If your V11 has a cat and you don't want to ruin it you would have to remove the cat. If your V11 has an O2 sensor and you don't want to ruin it you would have to remove the O2 sensor. 

You will not get more power out of avgas. There was an excellent test in the US on a show called Engine Masters where they ran a pushrod V8 on different octane fuels to show how octane, timing, and power, were inter related. Without adding compression, there is no power in octane.

To "tune" your V11 the standard method nowadays is GuzziDiag. Not sure avgas would actually make enough of a difference that any "tuning" is required.

[Weegie]

Phil nailed it back on page 1, AFAIK Octane number does not equate to a "bigger bang" usually the reverse is true.

The majority on here are extremely well informed (I'm excluding myself in that statement). AFAIK, Octane rating is poorly understood by the majority of motorcyclists. It's usually equated with more power and that's not the case (unless the engine is designed around the rating), it delays the onset of detonation and to make use of that the engine has to be tuned to suit.

Reading about Aero engines during WWII the allies had acess to 100 Octane then 150 (pure Octane being 100 on the detotnation scale). This enabled engines (like the Merlin) to produce more power but to do so they ran at stupidly high boost numbers.

[gstallons]

This "octane" is a flame retardant . Google it and read about the history , development , etc.  There is more to the power in av-gas than octane . Octane is to stop pre-ignition in the combustion process . The farther "up" in the air , the leaner , the oxygen . So , this is where the octane comes into play . It stops the preignition from leaner air/fuel mixture . 

You can't have problems in the air 

[GuzziMoto]

On 1/4/2022 at 11:47 AM, Weegie said:

Phil nailed it back on page 1, AFAIK Octane number does not equate to a "bigger bang" usually the reverse is true.

The majority on here are extremely well informed (I'm excluding myself in that statement). AFAIK, Octane rating is poorly understood by the majority of motorcyclists. It's usually equated with more power and that's not the case (unless the engine is designed around the rating), it delays the onset of detonation and to make use of that the engine has to be tuned to suit.

Reading about Aero engines during WWII the allies had acess to 100 Octane then 150 (pure Octane being 100 on the detotnation scale). This enabled engines (like the Merlin) to produce more power but to do so they ran at stupidly high boost numbers.

I find there are usually two versions of how people mis-understand octane. Some think it means more power, it does not. Running higher octane fuel in an engine designed for lower octane fuel will not make any additional power.

Some think octane is a measurement of how fast or slow the fuel burns, with higher octane meaning the fuel burns more slowly. It is not. Higher octane fuel could burn more slowly, but it might actually burn faster. Odds are, though, that it burns at the same rate as lower octane fuel. The octane rating of fuel is not a measurement of how fast or slow the fuel burns.

If your engine is designed to run on 91 octane fuel there is no reason to run it on avgas with a much higher octane.

[dangerous]

On 1/4/2022 at 11:05 PM, MartyNZ said:

When I was a young apprentice, I "salvaged" a 25litre drum of 100/130 (green Avgas) from a DC3 going into maintenance, and put it in my Honda CB450.

It felt faster, so I tested it. It reached 1000rpm more in top gear at the bend on Harewood Road on 100/130 than the "96 Super" of the time. I previously thought that higher octane was only worthwhile with higher compression or a blower, but there it was going faster.

Obviously there was some other difference than just octane rating for this fuel to give noticably more power. I had just fitted new 1st oversize pistons and rings, and XS650 cans, but otherwise the 450 was standard.

I know that Avgas has less volatiles to avoid boil-off and vapor lock at altitude, and I assume higher calorific value ingredients which made such a noticable difference.

Note that avgas is not the same as 100 octane service station pump fuel.

As for using 100/130 Avgas in a V11, I agree with the comments that the TEL additive, even in the LL (low lead) variant, will harm a catalytic converter and oxygen sensor if fitted. If not fitted, no harm to the engine, and possibly more power.

when you were young... the CB must have been brand new LOL...

In NZ that's where myself and marty are... to my best of knowledge we don't have methanol in our fuels, however the additives are rather shit and its my belief a lower oct is a better fuel than a higher as it has more shit additives in it.

I have used avgas or race fuel (aged avgas not allowed in aircraft) but not for performance but for a better quality and more reliability in past race bikes, beter for tuning as it is +/- 5% were as pump fuels can be up to +/- 15% 

re av in a V11... no I wouldent, but I dont know the issues you have it the US with methanol

[MartyNZ]

13 minutes ago, dangerous said:

when you were young... the CB must have been brand new LOL...

Cheeky bugger. Don't forget that you still owe me a beer. 

And it's spelled sensor, not sencer, dammit.

Youth of today mutter mutter...

[Chuck]

There is a little price issue, too. Looking at my navigation app, I'm seeing prices locally from $5.15 to $7.29..

[dangerous]

5 hours ago, Chuck said:

There is a little price issue, too. Looking at my navigation app, I'm seeing prices locally from $5.15 to $7.29..

a 44G drum? shit man

 

[dangerous]

6 hours ago, MartyNZ said:

Cheeky bugger. Don't forget that you still owe me a beer. 

And it's spelled sensor, not sencer, dammit.

Youth of today mutter mutter...

a beer? id say a few more... one day we will catch up... ya seen my new ride... so soooo... different to the v11

crap will have to try n shrink a pic...

[docc]

Here, I thought drums were 55G?

Got's a new ride , there, @dangerous? Pray tell . . .

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