GRISO vs. V11

[Mike Stewart]

I just think it is the sign of the times, meaning with all the strict emission laws, the only way to make a air cooled engine pass is to dual plug it. I guess you could always go bigger engine size wise

 

Mike

[Guest ratchethack]

I'd imagine my horsepower needs will decrease not increase, regardless of what is offered.

Dan, that's been my history up until today, now that I consider myself having successfully "graduated" to Road Geez status. Between the A65 and the V-11 there were many considerably faster, more powerful bikes...

Certianly you wanted more out of your V11 or you would not have modified it. Right?

Only if you consider "more" to be a "more flat" torque curve. I specifically modified to enhance that beautiful stock-issue torque spread, deliberately trading (possibly?) a little peak torque for filling in the infamous "hole", and raising the overall torque curve here n' there on the bottom and in the midrange, ignoring the peaks and the power curve entirely.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV

[Orson]

I had an FJ1200 too

82587[/snapback]

I had an FJ 1100!

 

and Al Roihsgoiuhftgiots had a 1200

 

odd this FJ connection

[DeBenGuzzi]

I had an FJ 1100!

 

and Al Roihsgoiuhftgiots had a 1200

 

odd this FJ connection

82604[/snapback]

Yeah no kidding. I think they're BUUUUUUUUUuuuuuuuutt. Ugly. Buuuuuut thats just me.

[Skeeve]

I just think it is the sign of the times, meaning with all the strict emission laws, the only way to make a air cooled engine pass is to dual plug it. 

82593[/snapback]

 

Well, if you're going to stay with the daft hemi combustion chamber, yeah...

 

Still, finding a pair of square heads at a fair price to modify w/ bathtub chambers eludes me; seems that anytime someone parts out their bike, it's either an old roundie being truly parted out, or a later vintage Guzzi with the engine sold as a unit & the rest being parted.

 

Don't bogart those heads!

[dlaing]

I just think it is the sign of the times, meaning with all the strict emission laws, the only way to make a air cooled engine pass is to dual plug it.    I guess you could always go bigger engine size wise

 

Mike

82593[/snapback]

I think there may be some other technology on the horizon.

Like Skeeve said the head could be improved.

Other possibilities include getting the phreaking air/fuel mixture correct.

Catylitic convertors.

Ceramic pistons, valves, and cylinder heads.

Thermostatically controlled fueling and ignition timing.

Closed loop WBO2.

Fan cooling (cheating a little)

Oil cooling (cheating a little more)

Bottom line is it is just a bit more R&D and more phreaking gadgets and complications to malfunction and confuse.

[Pierre]

I think there may be some other technology on the horizon.

...

Ceramic pistons, valves, and cylinder heads.

 

David, I think it's ceramics that will be the great equalizer. After all, it's the heat shedding superiority of water pumpers that makes them stronger per CC. That advantage all but disappears with ceramics, I think.

 

That's why I love FX and the fact that Buell is competing there. I really want to see air cooled technology pushed hard - not left to the dust bin of history.

 

I suspect the two stroke had a lot still to offer but couldn't get out ahead of the legislative curve. Don't want to see that happen with air cooled motors. I think racing drives innovation. Keep 'em racing and they'll continue to get better. But ceramics are the equalizer IMHO.

[Dan M]

I think there may be some other technology on the horizon.

Like Skeeve said the head could be improved.

Other  possibilities include getting the phreaking air/fuel mixture correct.

Catylitic convertors.

Ceramic pistons, valves, and cylinder heads.

Thermostatically controlled fueling and ignition timing.

Closed loop WBO2.

Fan cooling (cheating a little)

Oil cooling (cheating a little more)

Bottom line is it is just a bit more R&D and more phreaking gadgets and complications to malfunction and confuse.

82622[/snapback]

 

Yea it's called progress... I deal with the technology in today's cars on a daily basis and while it is mostly driven by emission standards and occupant safety (read EPA & insurance companies) advancement in all areas of performance are being realized. But you are right, the cost is gadgets and complications. There is certianly room for improvement in the current unit with better fuel and spark control, and a better head design, but if we want the next level of performance, liquid cooling is part of the picture. I think it's pretty hard to ring out much more than 100HP/liter and keep it reliable on an air cooled twin. I'm not saying I want a radiator on my goose, I love the simplicity of air cooling. The sad part is, future emission regulations will likely be the end of air cooled vehicles unless new materials, lubricants & fuels can close the gap. For now maybe part of the answer is to just make the damn things lighter.

[dlaing]

For now maybe part of the answer is to just make the damn things lighter. 

82641[/snapback]

If I could just lose twenty pounds off my butt and gut, that would be like gaining nearly 3% HP throughout the entire rev range!

[Steve G.]

The Griso has more potential for hot rodding, the twin plugging has already been taken care of, and I suspect it is less prone to pinging, so there may be more room for higher compression.

A hotter cam will give all you ricky racers what you are jonesing for.

Still, I think Guzzi has to introduce a model with just less than 100HP at the crank, wait a couple years give it 100HP at the crank, wait a couple more years and give it true 100HP rear wheel in classic bean counter strategy.

Once the bike has 100RWHP they can keep it that way for the next hundred years, evolving towards lighter, greener, more reliable, etc.

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Sticking with the current air cooled, 2 valve pushrod configuration, it is unlikely Moto Guzzi will ever be able to meet your wishes [and mine!] of 100 rear wheel horse power, and a meaty torque curve. Oh they may be able to get 110 hp plus out of the old girl, but reduced engine life will enter into the equation. And the more the horsepower, the less street usable this engine will become.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, so can comment that I was never foolish enough to get a V11 for it's power, when fully 50% more power can easily be found for the same money. That said, it is interesting to compare the performance characteristics of the V11 and Griso. The visual aspects are always personal, so conversing on which looks better is a lost cause. But purchasing a machine usually is dictated to a large part by what it looks like. I would venture to guess [the Breva/Griso family has yet to arrive in Canada] from feedback I've gotten that the Griso is a better made machine. As a motojournalist summed it up," the V11 is a frame with a Moto Guzzi engine in it, a Griso is a complete integral machine".

As for hopping up a Griso engine, I know the aftermarket companies would love you, as that's perhaps the largest profit margin segment of the 'powersports' market. The 2 sparkplug change was adopted in the 1980's by alot of car manufacturers to help along antiquated combustion chamber design through increasing emmisions regulations. I should think this is the same story for Moto Guzzi's recent version engine. It has nothing to do with increased performance, although should help to speedup the flame spread across the piston for more efficent combustion, again helping emmisions, and increased life of the catalytic converter.

Ciao, Steve G.

[Skeeve]

David, I think it's ceramics that will be the great equalizer.  After all, it's the heat shedding superiority of water pumpers that makes them stronger per CC.  That advantage all but disappears with ceramics, I think.

 

The ceramic engines ran into problems with NOx emissions when the automakers 1st started down that path in the 80's; now that we have 2-way catcons, this shouldn't be the impassable hurdle it was back then with the oxidizing-only 1 stage catalytic converters. So I agree, there's hope for continued life in an A/C engine yet...

 

That's why I love FX and the fact that Buell is competing there.  I really want to see air cooled technology pushed hard - not left to the dust bin of history.

 

Hear, hear! Altho', I must admit that I like it simply because a field composed of largely-identical bikes with everyone following the "pace line" around the course is quite tedious, so having a nice mix in the field just makes the racing better from the spectators' position...

 

I suspect the two stroke had a lot still to offer but couldn't get out ahead of the legislative curve.  Don't want to see that happen with air cooled motors.  I think racing drives innovation.  Keep 'em racing and they'll continue to get better.  But ceramics are the equalizer IMHO.

82626[/snapback]

 

I guess we'll just have to wait & see, and keep our fingers crossed!

[Guest AdamofKC]

I know this sounds waaaaay out there, but why not make an air-cooled engine with titanium? Yea I know that would be more expensive than practical, but imagine and correct me if I'm wrong, but since Titanium is stronger than steel and aluminum(not combined), and the heat tolerances are similar to aluminum, then a solid titanium engine could, theorhetically, get that 110 rwhp without much in the way of a problem. Well, the first problem being price, lol.

 

Heh, just thought I throw that out there...

[G-S]

It should be possible to go down the 4 valve head with air/oil cooling path and get similar (or slightly higher) outputs than BMW have managed with thier boxer twins.

 

There isn't a great deal of difference between the engine layouts at the end of the day (ducks away from lots of things being thrown at him)

 

And at the end of the day the oil head Beemers aren't any less a beemer than the airheads are, they have just as much (or as little!) character as any other beemer twin.

 

If Guzzi were to do that then it wouldn't require huge amounts of money and they could probably keep making 2 valve and 4 vavle motors (probably using the 2 valve version in the cruisers).

 

An an oil cooler is lots less obvious than a water radiator and the general engine apperence wouldn't be _that_ different (which is important).

 

YMMV

[DeBenGuzzi]

I know this sounds waaaaay out there, but why not make an air-cooled engine with titanium?    Yea I know that would be more expensive than practical, but imagine and correct me if I'm wrong, but since Titanium is stronger than steel and aluminum(not combined), and the heat tolerances are similar to aluminum, then a solid titanium engine could, theorhetically, get that 110 rwhp without much in the way of a problem.  Well, the first problem being price, lol.

 

Heh, just thought I throw that out there...

82716[/snapback]

Maybe if they would have made a whole bunch when the USSR dumped their titanium on the world market after they fell. The stuff was pretty cheap but it seems to have been on the rise since they decided to make everything out of it these days. But there must be more of a reason why they don't use it as engine blocks that we maybe don't know about someone like jason or I'm sure Ratchet could fill us in.

[Steve G.]

Maybe if they would have made a whole bunch when the USSR dumped their titanium on the world market after they fell. The stuff was pretty cheap but it seems to have been on the rise since they decided to make everything out of it these days. But there must be more of a reason why they don't use it as engine blocks that we maybe don't know about someone like jason or I'm sure Ratchet could fill us in. 

82720[/snapback]

They don't use it because magnesium is cheaper. And there is no advantage other than weight savings to using titanium over aluminium. The key to all this is to get a jacket around the cylinder, either filled with oil [like BMW] or some other liquid. This eliminates inconsistant hot spots/cool spots around the cylinder, as well as consistant temperature operation, with the main advantage of using MUCH tighter cylinder/piston/ring end clearances. This increases combustion effiency, less ring blow by.

This 'reliable,usable ' 110 hp figure could only be acheived with both liquid cooling, and overhead can technology. Much more aggressive cam profiles can be used with cam lobes operating directly on valve stems vs pushrod technology. Add 4 valve heads to this picture and you see why the Jap engines are getting 175hp out of 998cc engines, with low rev characteristics that are certainly very usable around town, yet demonic at high revs.