Battery Leaks

[Ryland3210]

"Paul Minnaert

Apr 21 2005, 10:31 PM

in The Guzzi technical notes read this:

 

Subject: new battery

Model: V11

Problem:

short life-span of the presently fitted ESA SPARK 500E battery.

Solution in production:

the YUASA YTZ12S battery will be fitted (comes from Yuasa already filled with fluid).

In production is fitted a new wiring while on bikes with present wiring it is possible to fit the battery and reroute

the cables."

86165[/snapback]

I just attempted to install the YTX15L supplied by the dealer to replace the leaking YTX15L-BS.

 

By accident, I noticed marks on the seat bottom that looked like interference from the battery. Sure enough, there is minimal clearance with the battery's bottom towards the front of the bike. There is also a rib on the left side of the seat that interferes about 15 mm near the battery's positive terminal. I installed the seat, and felt the battery with one hand while putting just my other hand's pressure on the seat. I could feel the battery move down as I put only about 5 kg on the seat!

 

Now I am wondering whether the battery supplied with the bike leaked because of my body weight being transferred right to the battery.

 

Luckily I found this before riding the bike. Rather than go through the whole process of finding a third battery that would be small enough to fit, I modified the battery support bracket to lower the bottom of the battery. I did this by bending the two "Z" shaped parts in two places, using a vice. Each of the four original 90 degree bends was straightened to about 120 degrees. This lowered the battery's bottom about 15mm.

 

I used a Dremel tool to cut the plastic rib out of the seat to eliminate the other interference near the battery's top.

 

The same problem would exist with the Odyssey PC545. The service replacement suggested by Moto Guzzi is the YTZ12S, which is smaller. It probably clears the rib, but it just as thick as the other alternatives, so the bracket modification would probably be necessary to be safe.

[Ryland3210]

I just attempted to install the YTX15L supplied by the dealer to replace the leaking YTX15L-BS.

 

By accident, I noticed marks on the seat bottom that looked like interference from the battery. Sure enough, there is minimal clearance with the battery's bottom towards the front of the bike. There is also a rib on the left side of the seat that interferes about 15 mm near the battery's positive terminal. I installed the seat, and felt the battery with one hand while putting just my other hand's pressure on the seat. I could feel the battery move down as I put only about 5 kg on the seat!

 

Now I am wondering whether the battery supplied with the bike leaked because of my body weight being transferred right to the battery.

 

Luckily I found this before riding the bike. Rather than go through the whole process of finding a third battery that would be small enough to fit, I modified the battery support bracket to lower the bottom of the battery. I did this by bending the two "Z" shaped parts in two places, using a vice. Each of the four original 90 degree bends was straightened to about 120 degrees. This lowered the battery's bottom about 15mm.

 

I used a Dremel tool to cut the plastic rib out of the seat to eliminate the other interference near the battery's top.

 

The same problem would exist with the Odyssey PC545. The service replacement suggested by Moto Guzzi is the YTZ12S, which is smaller. It probably clears the rib, but it just as thick as the other alternatives, so the bracket modification would probably be necessary to be safe.

 

After 8 months of service, I am happy to report that there have been no problems with leakage or otherwise with the dealer supplied, factory prepared, Yuasa YTX15L battery installed in my '04 Sport last April 2006. I believe the previous battery leaked because the seat base rib transferred my weight directly to the battery case.

 

I do not know whether other models have this interference issue, but it would be wise to check this out. I was lucky to spot the crystalized Sulfuric Acid on the rear end while the leak was still minor. FYI, I'm no heavyweight at 145 pounds.

[docc]

I have heard jumping from a largr source like a car is bad, but can it be done safely? Use the car's jack as a resistor?

[Guest Gary Cheek]

Limiting the current through small gauge cables or a low current source IE: the cigarette lighter plug is OK. Try to leave the jumpers connected just long enough to get started. As an aside , bikes with SHUNT regulators (ZENER regulated Britbikes) Should never get a boost from a car or any current source capable of delivering over 10 amps or so.

[dlaing]

Limiting the current through small gauge cables or a low current source IE: the cigarette lighter plug is OK. Try to leave the jumpers connected just long enough to get started. As an aside , bikes with SHUNT regulators (ZENER regulated Britbikes) Should never get a boost from a car or any current source capable of delivering over 10 amps or so.

I don't think limiting the current is neccesary other than making sure the car is not running. The 12.6V of the car battery will not produce excessive current unless something is very wrong with the motorcycle, like a shorted battery, starter wire, or starter.

If you just left the parking lights on too long, or the bike sat for a winter, I don't think the current would be very strong. Leaving it connected for a minute before starting would help charge it. After you start the bike it should be immediatly disconnected. Pre-charging for a minute with the car battery will decrease the amperage between the alternator and battery after the bike starts. It will take a load off the alternator, as the alternator will now have to work double duty to charge it.

But you are certainly correct that if the car is running the current could get too high, and if something is wrong with the bike the current will get too high.

 

I suspect I toasted my regulator because it had to work extra hard to charge a battery that was failing. A week battery will draw more amps from a given voltage. This can overload the regulator, the wiring, and maybe the alternator.

 

If you know you battery is weak and you are about to go on a ride to charge it up, you may be asking for trouble.

Traditional strategy is to keep the RPMs high, but this may produce too many amps. Keeping the RPMs high is a bad strategy.

Charging with with one of the chargers recommended by the battery maker is the best strategy. IMHO

I certainly could be wrong...

[Guest Gary Cheek]

You are right, if the car is not running the current should be low enough to prevent any evil. Smaller cables and/ or a current limited source are just added insurance.

As far as chargers, most any low rate manual charger used properly is absolutely fine for AGM batteries. Most low rate auto chargers will do an accepatable job with AGM as well. For long term use or fastest charging a dedicated or specialized charger MAY be prefered. The limiting factor is holding back the current after the initial charge.

I bought my 2001 V11 as salvage in 2002. It came with the original battery completely discharged. I manually charged the battery at that time it came up to a normal voltage have not had to charge it since. In the summer months the bike is my daily commuter, lights on 10 miles each way. In the winter I usually ride a different bike and the Sport sits for up to 4 months. It always starts promptly in the spring.

 

I have used nothing but AGM batteries in all my Guzzis and my truck for the last 5 years or so with excellent results. I'm sold on AGM till something better comes along.

 

Actually when AGM batteries become weak they often will not draw a large current. Dying batteries develop high resistance and cannot draw large currents. Shorted cells may cause higher currents when charging. Extended running with large accessory loads can do a number on series type, Thyristor regulators as well.

 

Driving lights and heated clothing (yuck) need to be used with some sensibility. A good means of measuring battery voltage can help with maintaining safe voltage levels which are a pretty good indication pf how hard the charging system is working.

[dlaing]

Actually when AGM batteries become weak they often will not draw a large current. Dying batteries develop high resistance and cannot draw large currents.

My experience is that the more discharged any lead acid battery is, AGM or other, the larger the current will be.

If I plug in my 10A/2A automotive charger and set it to 10A it starts at 10A and about 13.5V and then as it charges the voltage rises, exceeding 15V(which is bad, and which is why I use the expensive recommended charger) and the amperage drops to about 2A.

If I switch to the 2A mode it starts at 2A and about 13.5V and then as it charges the voltage rises, exceeding 15V(which is bad, and which is why I use the expensive recommended charger) and the amperage drops to roughly about about 1A.

Not sure what happens with our regulator. From what I can tell the voltage remains the same while the amperage is regulated only by the wires roasting and the fuse blowing

I would guess that an AGM battery discharged to say 11.8V (20% charged) would draw over 20A at 14.5V.

Combine the 10A or more of other things that are running and we may quickly be above 30A.

As the battery becomes charged the current will drop to less than one amp when 14.5Volts are applied.

But I am only guessing and don't want to experiment measuring the amps flowing to a discharged battery from my expensive regulator and alternator

In fact the only way I know how to test the amperage, above 10A, is to blow the fuse

[Guest Gary Cheek]

Lets not confuse discharged and aging batteries. A discharged HEALTHY battery will of course draw more current. An aged, sulphated battery cannot draw the larger current and in fact often draws very little current. It is one of the tell-tales of a battery nearing the end of it's service life.

 

 

One symptom of a deeply discharged battery is a very slight initial current flow even at elevated voltages. I have 20 volt sources barely nudge a 1 amp flow with a deeply discharged 12 volt lead/antimony wet battery. As the battery charges the current rises then tapers off again as the battery reaches it's ultimate charge. Usually batteries are taken this low they are permanently reduced in capacity.

 

Once again, the expensive charger is not a must have with low rate chargers. The main requirement is when charging at higher rates. If for some reason it makes you feel better, go for it. Charger manufacturers tend to hype the needs of newer battery technologies, it's good for sales. Some battery makers have an interest in certain style chargers as well. Basic chargers do a pretty good job with AGM batteries among low rate chargers.

Again, manual chargers rely upon the operator to terminate charge at the proper time.

 

With AGM batteries an occasional, intentional, SLIGHT overcharge is actually desireable as it helps to bring the habitually lower voltage cells closer to the level of the other cells. AGM batteries are tolerant of slight overcharge.

Manufacturers refer to this as a levelling charge.

 

A very handy instrument to monitor amperage, voltage, wattage, amp hours etc going to or coming from a battery is readily available at the hobby shop. Check out the stuff from Astro Flight etc used by the guys who fly electric powered airplanes. Good for up to 50 volts at 70 amps they measure just how much energy you sent to or took from a circuit. They can measure alternator output, headlight consumtion etc. Your imagination is the limit. There are many styles from many makers. Price? Around $50

[dlaing]

http://www.batterymart.com/p-odyssey-ultim...ry-charger.html

Is expensive at $69 +shipping, but worth it in my opinion.

 

It was not available when I bought my $109 charger, Xenotronic Optimizer

http://www.portablepower.com/items/search/all/1/all/34S201S4

 

My $30(on sale) 10A/2A Schauer automotive charger puts out more than 15V. But is fine to use up to 15V, but that leaves the battery partially charged.

 

Hawker recommends,

" If the voltage output from the charger is less than 14.2V or more than 15V for a 12V battery do not use the charger. "

from http://www.enersysreservepower.com/odycharg_b.asp

Recommended reading for all Spark 500 and Hawker Odyssey owners ...IMHO

[dlaing]

Lets not confuse discharged and aging batteries.

Good point.

Perhaps an old battery trying to recharge won't toast the regulator.

But if you have a good new battery and left the parking light on over-night, push start it and then keep the revs up to recharge, you may be looking at a toasted regulator.

The Ultimizer is cheap by comparison

But I suppose if you hook up your automotive charger until you get 15V (watching carefully) that is probably charged enough to start and maybe keep you from toasting the alternator.

[Guest Gary Cheek]

Been to those sites, read them, done that. We have Xenotronic chargers in service. We also have even more sophisticated microprocessor contolled battery maintenance equipment. It is capable of measuring battery performance and thus battery charging system effectiveness. The Xenotronics work just fine. Motorcycle applications are not really the most demanding and many other chargers are quite suitable for motorcycle purposes.

 

You could hook up almost any low rate "automotive" charger and get excellent results. Or you can buy into ad hype and spend a few more dollars. The manual chargers are just that. They were not automatic with flooded cell bateries , they are not automatic with AGM batteries.

Low rate automatic chargers work OK on both. Most newer automatic chargers have a maintenance free setting but it is not an absolute requirement for charging AGM batteries at a low rate. The old non AGM, GEL-CELL batteries were a lot fussier to charge and maintain than an AGM battery.

 

If you desire to charge at a high rate, a charger designed for AGM is in order. In certain commercial applications such as motorized wheelchairs fast charging is desired and chargers are built for that purpose. For occasional maintenance recharges, there is no real need to spring for a whistles and bells charger.

As far as storage is concerned AGM batteries have the lowest self discarge rate of all the batteries commonly used in motorcycles. That combined with the fact that low temps slow self discharge even further and the need for float charging stored bikes is minimized. Disconnect the battery from the bike to avoid parasitic loads and 4 months storage in the cold is no problem. In fact cold is better than warm storage.

My wife uses an electric lawnmower powered by a pair of the same batteries used in the V11 Sport. They have been charged with a pair of plain old Sears battery chargers(made by Schauer) on the maintenance free setting for the lase 5 years. When she pulls it out in the spring the batteries are virtually ready to use. The charger may cycle for 15 minutes but she could easily cut the entire yard without first topping off.The Sears chargers have done an admirable jobv of fully charging the AGM batteries, Haker batteries are AGM batteries.

Even at 5 years the batteries are fine.

 

Here at GM we use all types and sizes of AGM batteries, all types and styles of chargers.Many of these batteries are operated total loss and are only charged by "automotive" chargers. I have not seen any difference between low rate chargers, used as designed and intended. We jumped on the AGM batteries when they first appeared on the market. In the concept car bisiness wet cells had many serious drawbacks.Leaks, noxiuos explosive gasses etc. From a safety standpoint GEL-CELLS were more desireable but not as reliable. When the AGM arrived we had the best of both types. Many folks still associate some of the GELL-CELL quirks with AGM. They need not.

 

Any of the mentioned chargers, used properly will save your alternator and regulator from the duty of charging a nearly flat battery.

 

The alternator on Moto Guzzis that came with wet-cell batteries works just fine on AGM batteries. The alternator is merely a crank driven battery charger. I didn't change a thing in any of the cars or trucks that I have "converted" to AGM and have been very pleased with excellent service from fully charged batteries, regardless of the method...... Hype aside.

 

I would have no problem cycling AGM batteries charged at standard rates with various mode chargers. I have no doubt the battery capacity would measure within very close limits regardless. Battery life? I haven't seen any real difference there either. Not with my experience limited to a few hundred AGM batteries over the last 5 years or so anyhow.

Once again, The Xenotronics chargers work just fine. Motorcycle applications are not really the most demanding and many other chargers are quite suitable for motorcycle purposes. The high end chargers work, so do others. With excellent results.

[docc]

 

 

Driving lights and heated clothing (yuck) need to be used with some sensibility. A good means of measuring battery voltage can help with maintaining safe voltage levels which are a pretty good indication pf how hard the charging system is working.

 

 

We're in the same discussion now on two different threads. Still, it is battery season for most of us.

 

Does the voltage monitor need to be full time or can you check voltage before and after a ride with accessories as an indication of too much load?

 

I have tried plugging up the heated clothing and checking voltage at the battery while revving to different rpm. But all I was looking for was the rpm that voltage stayed above, say, 13vDC. Is there a better method to check how the system is tolerating the load?

 

Finally, Gary, I see you don't like the yucky heated clothes. Just personal preference or some technical decision?

 

I'm headed to a fellow rider's 80th birthday gathering Saturday in the upper 30s F and was counting on my Gerbings . . .

[Guest Gary Cheek]

It is more useful and informative to monitor the voltage when the ignition is on. You will get a good feel for the system function as you become more familiar with typical voltages under various operating conditions.

 

The LED type are usually a color bargraph that becomes almost subliminal in nature. As the load increases the first the grren lights extinguish followed by yellow then red. It becomes second nature, knowing when to cut loads or inrease engine speed. While breifly operating in the red is no big deal as long as the speed resumes soon or you are able to decrease the load. Also when you shut the engine off you may take a look at the battery condition to anticipate potential problems at the next start up. When you first activate the ignition the pump will momentarily cycle and give a load test any departure from normal readings will give you a heads up.

 

Electrical clothing is mostly a personal preference for me. I have been a year round rider since the mini-bike days. I don't like fussing with cords and tethering cables. Never really been cold enough to feel the need to mess with that stuff. It is nice to know that your clothing will do the job of keeping you warm on it's own. Sure beats being light on clothing when a cable or heating element fails.

The only heating I am about to consider are grip warmers. It seems the years of beating sheet metal for hours on end are taking their toll and the hands are becoming more sensitive to extreme cold. heated grips rather than gloves for the same reason, cords.

 

Still, many find the electric stuff extends their season and that is fine. It is a matter of tolerance. I happen to tolerate cold better than I tolerate cords I guess. Different philosophy?

 

Good luck on the ride. I really like to hear about old timers still slapping leather.

 

My father in law is 83 and still has three bikes, bless his heart. Rides them well too. He was born and raised in Ironwood Michigan (U.P. near the Northern Wisconsin border) and was 10th Mountain Div U.S. Army WWII. AKA the Ski guys that trained at 10,000' in what is now Vale CO. Spent the tail end of WWII in the Aponines, Italy.

 

I sure hope to be riding as well at 83, perhaps trying to outride a 30 year old jealous husband!

[dlaing]

Hawker recommends,

" If the voltage output from the charger is less than 14.2V or more than 15V for a 12V battery do not use the charger. "

from http://www.enersysreservepower.com/odycharg_b.asp

Recommended reading for all Spark 500 and Hawker Odyssey owners ...IMHO

So which do you think is hype?

Don't use a charger that does not produce 14.2V or greater, or don't use a charger produces more than 15V?

I understand it is fine to use the charger that does not put out 14.2 V as long as you realize it will not always fully charge the battery.

I also understand it is OK to use a charger that exceeds 15V as long as you monitor it and do not exceed the 15V.

But you have success with the lawn mower batteries and are probably pumping 16V into them, unless your charger is different than mine.

Is that OK?

I have suspected that it might be fine at my 2 amp setting, but at 10A I think I would damage the battery before it becomes fully charged if I took it up to say 15.5 Volts.

If I was content with charging just enough so that I can start the bike, I would agree that setting my charger to 2A and bringing it up to 15V is good enough, if you can go for an hour ride after charging.

If you can't and are then going to let it sit all Winter, the battery is probably about 80% charged, I think you will be decreasing the batteries life storing it partially charged.

Would you recommend storring it partially charged or exceeding the 15V to get it fully charged?

If you would exceed 15V would you do it at 2A, 6A, 10A, 20A setting?

The good thing about the Guzzi regulator is that it won't exceed 14.xV unless broken, but my Electrex Regulator won't even reach the magical 14.2V recommended by Hawker. For me this is another reason to periodically charge.

The main reason I charge is because I have a leak through the ECU.

But it does seem like the Electrex keeps it charged, so maybe the 14.2V is bull-loney, unless the battery is fully discharged and sulfated

[badmotogoozer]

http://www.norbsa02.freeuk.com/goffyelectrex.htm

 

scroll down to "battery status monitor". Putting one in my notoriously weak charging Duc GT. Maybe the goose too...

 

Rj