Battery Leaks

[Guest Gary Cheek]

http://www.norbsa02.freeuk.com/goffyelectrex.htm

 

scroll down to "battery status monitor". Putting one in my notoriously weak charging Duc GT. Maybe the goose too...

 

Rj

Looks like a very nice, unobtrusive indicator!

 

You may want to get your voltage source on a lightly loaded circuit as close to the battery as possible. There are very many heavily loaded circuits on Guzzis that will give erroneous readings based on circuit load. You are after the actual battery voltage not a branch circuit's operating voltage. If you have headlight relays you have already removed a huge load from that circuit. On a typical Cal II or III there may be as much as a 2 volt difference at the instrument cluster between the indicated voltage and the battrery voltage. The relay equipped bikes can get a good indication but the no relay bikes always read low. It gets worse when connections and switches age.

 

WHAT HYPE?

 

The main "hype" is the inferrence that you can only charge an AGM battery with a very special charger. Also understand many voltmeters can be quite a bit less than accurate as well as compensation for temperature will give widely varied readings.

 

The most common mid range automatic chargers made in the last 7 years or so have a "maintenance free" setting. This setting typically terminates the charge at 14.8 volts. A pretty good figure for a non temp compensated charger for general use. It is a good voltage to look for when manually charging at a low rate (2 amps)Also bear in mind non compensated chargers may not perform as intended when used in extreme cold or high ambient temps, another case for just parking the bike charged and touching up again in spring. There are some temperature compensation charts around for AGM batts. You may want to look them up and consider them when charging other than suggested temps.

 

The "conventional" setting on most chargers is closer to 14.4 volts. A bit light for AGM but seviceable. With older chargers that lack the "maintenance free" setting you can simply allow the automatic cycle to take place then top of by switching to manual and watching for the 14.8 to 14.9 volt level to terminate the manual charge. By doing this you are emulating the big buck stuff anyhow.

 

Of course you can do the same with a dual setting charger by selecting conventional rather than maintenance free.

NOTE:

 

The fall and spring charges may be a good time for a slight "leveling" overcharge so 15 volts would not be unreasonable as long as that level is not held for more than an hour or so since the current flow is likely to be very slight at that point anyhow. There are always a lazy cell or two to deal with and the leveling charge can help get you off on the right foot.

 

 

The main drawback to 15 volt charging is when done repeatedly or for extended periods like, say leaving the battery connected for a winter storage or even longer than a day. The battery will loose electrolyte from failure to cope with the long term overcharge. I would not suggest running past 15 volts very often but a couple times per year may do more good than harm. I NEVER leave a battery for extended periods with ANY automatic charger. It is better to get an Intermatic or similar timer at the hardware store. The one with the little adjustable pegs. Set the charger to come on for 15 to 30 minutes per day and you should be in good shape. (Still using an auto, low rate charger).

For the most part however it is not needed for storing an AGM for a few months. Charge it , disconnect it and 3 months or so later you are still in good shape.

 

I made a comment earlier about Sears chargers, I should say I belive most of the 10/2 amp chargers were Schumacher made chargers not Schauer.

 

I should also be clear that I am not slamming the $$$ chargers just letting folks who may not have the free cash know they can survive well without them.

 

Cheers, Gary in Utica MI

[Ryland3210]

We're in the same discussion now on two different threads. Still, it is battery season for most of us.

 

 

Gee, all I wanted to do was report on the results of my analysis and solution to the leaking battery interference problem on my '04 Sport. Somehow the other thread discussion migrated over here. On bikes where the seat contacts the battery, that can't be good for the battery. Several of the batteries recommended by various sources had the same interference problem.

 

I'm concerned this information will get lost among the present discussion in this thread.

 

Perhaps a summary of this problem and details on battery dimensions versus space together with the solution belong under the FAQ or How To Section.

[Guest Gary Cheek]

This thread is about battery leaks. AGM batteries should not leak. I have seen broken batteries not spill a drop. Overcharging an AGM battery generates gasses and internal pressure. This is usually caused by extreme, extended overcharging, like with a malfunctional "maintenance" charger.(This is one reason I never use auto chargers for extended periods) Seals around terminals that have been stressed and the built in safety vents can allow the gasses to escape. Once outside the gasses condense and you have wet spots from the "leak".

[docc]

This thread is about battery leaks. AGM batteries should not leak. I have seen broken batteries not spill a drop. Overcharging an AGM battery generates gasses and internal pressure. This is usually caused by extreme, extended overcharging, like with a malfunctional "maintenance" charger.(This is one reason I never use auto chargers for extended periods) Seals around terminals that have been stressed and the built in safety vents can allow the gasses to escape. Once outside the gasses condense and you have wet spots from the "leak".

 

 

This is the finding I've noticed on batteries with seat pressure, kind of a 'misting' appearance.

 

Something in FAQ is a good idea since the seat pressure is common. There are threads on modifying the battery basket. I moved my front mounts under the subframe with good clearance and still enough room above the shock.

[Ryland3210]

This thread is about battery leaks. AGM batteries should not leak. I have seen broken batteries not spill a drop. Overcharging an AGM battery generates gasses and internal pressure. This is usually caused by extreme, extended overcharging, like with a malfunctional "maintenance" charger.(This is one reason I never use auto chargers for extended periods) Seals around terminals that have been stressed and the built in safety vents can allow the gasses to escape. Once outside the gasses condense and you have wet spots from the "leak".

 

Hi Gary,

 

I agree with you wholeheartedly on the importance of using proper charging procedures, especially with sealed varieties. I have lots of seasonal toys, vehicles, tractors, mowers, etc. to maintain batteries for. My procedure is to check voltage regularly. When they drop to about 50%, I recharge them the number of hours at a slow charge rate to bring them back to 100%. I generally find they need recharging about once every 2-4 weeks. I have found that this extends battery life substantially. When I get around to it, I hope to find a charger which I can rely upon not to overcharge. When that happens, my plan is to charge the weaker batteries to the point they are all at the same voltage, then connect them together and use a single high quality charger to maintain them. I'm interested if you have any comments on this?

 

To summarize my whole experience on the leaking battery adventure, as I think I said earlier in this thread, I strongly suspect the dealer gave the battery a quick charge. However, in my case it wasn't just a wet spot. Enough liquid had leaked out to overflow the rubber tray and drip over the exhaust pipe and the rear suspension. Once I investigated the whole situation and found the seat bearing on the battery, I fixed that while I was at it. I insisted the dealer send me a factory prepared battery because I didn't want to take a chance on their charging method a second time, and because it was recommended by Yuasa) I would have preferred an Odyssey, but it was the dealer's call, and it still would have required the mod's to provide clearance under the seat. The factory prepared battery was received only partly charged, so I topped it off at 0.8 amps to stay well below the recommended limit. No problems since then.

[Guest Gary Cheek]

There could easily have been a problem with a user activated battery due to improper activation or imprper application. No telling if they read the directions or saw no electrolyte and "topped off" when they were adding the electrolyte..

[dlaing]

Yuasa says,

Must use Factory Activated battery, due to battery tilt possibly causing leakage.

YTX15L (factory activated) only available at Bombardier dealers

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/battery.asp?...81&vID=5053

Or if link is broken, search for Battery Type: YTX15L-BS

 

They also say,

FAQ's

Can an AGM battery be installed in any position?

 

In most applications, batteries are installed in an upright position, but in some situations there is a need to tilt them (sometimes at very extreme angles) or lay them completely flat on their backs.

 

Yuasa typically supplies AGM batteries with separate acid packs that you must fill (and charge) yourself. We do not recommend that this type of battery be installed on it's side, or even an extreme angle, due to possible leakage occuring.

 

Fortunately, Yuasa offers many AGM batteries as "Factory Activated". Generally this type of battery is safe to install in almost any direction. If there is any question of a particular vehicle/battery/installation please contact us for our specific recommendation before attempting to use battery.

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/faqs.asp?action=1&id=27

 

 

And headed away from leaking and back to charging...

Here is odyssey's view on

charging

and chargers

and recommended chargers

 

 

Also interesting tidbit for those making short runs to the beer store.

V-Twin Custom Motorcycles – With the introduction of large cubic-inch engines, i.e., 108-120+, required starting energy is at minimum double that of stock smaller cubic-inch V-twin engines. The old rule of thumb is that it takes 20 minutes of highway riding to recharge the battery for a single start. These larger engines require at least 40 minutes. These custom bikes generally are ridden more in town; short distances and doesn’t receive the required ride time to get a full recharge on the battery. This sets up the scenario for the battery to be discharged more than it is charged and after a short time, sometimes-just days, the battery no longer starts the bike. Typical run-down battery voltages are less than 12 volts. Full charge battery voltage is 12.84 volts.

http://www.odysseyfactory.com/shortlife.htm

[Ryland3210]

Yuasa says,

 

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/battery.asp?...81&vID=5053

Or if link is broken, search for Battery Type: YTX15L-BS

 

They also say,

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/faqs.asp?action=1&id=27

And headed away from leaking and back to charging...

Here is odyssey's view on

charging

and chargers

and recommended chargers

Also interesting tidbit for those making short runs to the beer store.

http://www.odysseyfactory.com/shortlife.htm

 

FWIW, once I showed my dealer the Yuasa advice on the factory prepared version, and where they could be obtained up north, that convinced him of my credibility. He then agreed to purchase it from a Bombadier supplier in Canada (not available at least at that time anywhere in the U.S.) and was kind enough to have it drop shipped directly to me.

 

I shared my findings about the seat interference with him, together with the fact that the factory prepared battery was far from fully charged as received, and the importance of avoiding charging at high rates. I hope that saved him and his customers some grief.

[Guest Gary Cheek]

 

Here is odyssey's view on

charging

and chargers

and recommended chargers

Also interesting tidbit for those making short runs to the beer store.

http://www.odysseyfactory.com/shortlife.htm

" However, this is not an all-inclusive list, and other chargers that also feature the charge voltages and profiles we recommend may be available in the market."

 

The requirements set forth in the Odyssey info-mercial are quite readily met by most modern low rate automatic chargers as well with a properly handled manual charger. Easy for those who fully understand what is actually taking place.

The caution regarding a positve termination of charge should be heeded. This is why I suggest a simple wall timer rather than relying on a sokid state device to positively terminate the charge. A bit of duplication can pay off in reliably turning off the charger. I never rely upon an auto charger for long term, unattended battery maintenance. It only take one bad charger to ruin your day. The longer it is connected the more chance for a failure.

[Ryland3210]

" However, this is not an all-inclusive list, and other chargers that also feature the charge voltages and profiles we recommend may be available in the market."

 

The requirements set forth in the Odyssey info-mercial are quite readily met by most modern low rate automatic chargers as well with a properly handled manual charger. Easy for those who fully understand what is actually taking place.

The caution regarding a positve termination of charge should be heeded. This is why I suggest a simple wall timer rather than relying on a sokid state device to positively terminate the charge. A bit of duplication can pay off in reliably turning off the charger. I never rely upon an auto charger for long term, unattended battery maintenance. It only take one bad charger to ruin your day. The longer it is connected the more chance for a failure.

 

I like the wall timer insurance against over charging. It's still important to remember to disconnect the charging leads if the charger is the kind that has rectifier diodes that provide leakage paths when it isn't charging.

[Janusz]

I've read all info in this thread carefully and I am more confused then before. Could somebody please answer my questions in a simple manner, yes or no?

 

I have just received a direct replacement of stock battery, a new Power Source WP13-12NE, which seems to be identical to Sparks 500. I have an old charger which has 6A and 2A switch and a little analog needle gauge which is an ammeter I believe. I also have a digital $10 multimeter.

I will not install this battery for approx. 4-6 weeks before riding and the voltage measured is now 12.22V which means, as I understand, 50% charge state.

 

Should I "top up" (charge) it now? If yes at what setting (6A or 2A) and for how long? I do not mind constantly monitor charging voltage with my multimeter.

[Guest Gary Cheek]

The 50% point is where sulfation usually starts to set in. AGM batteries will survive sulfation much better than standard ,wet lead/antimony but it is still best to avoid sulfation. A good charger is preferrable to alternator charging of a heavily sulfated battery of any type. A low rate manual charger, properly used will work fine for recharging a battery that is simply discharged as opposed to heavily sulfated.

You can charge at the 2 amp setting with a manual charger safely. Stop the charging at 14.8>15.0 volts. This assumes you are charging the battery at near room temperature. The temperature is a critical element often ignored with "float" or automatic chargers. The best chargers are temperature compensated.

 

At the end of the season you may want to level the cell voltages before storing. You can take a healthy battery up to the 15.0>15.5 volt range for a couple of hours.(No longer and no higher voltage, In other words two hours above 15 volts MAX and less if the battery hits 15.5 in less than 2 hours ) This will bring the lazy cells closer to the level of the stronger ones.

[docc]

I'm taking on the midwinter struggle with my seven batteries.

 

Is 14.8 vDC the target charge for both conventional 'wet' cells and AGM?

[dlaing]

I'm taking on the midwinter struggle with my seven batteries.

 

Is 14.8 vDC the target charge for both conventional 'wet' cells and AGM?

For a fairly healthy battery, it is a good target charge.

For Sulfated batteries you need a higher voltage.

Conventional wet cell batteries are more prone to sulfation and thus more likely may need a higher voltage to overcome the sulfation.

The higher the voltage, and the more time spent at a high voltage, the greater the risk of damage to the battery.

Calculating charging time is something that I have trouble with.

I believe in being cautious with the calculation.

Most chargers will give you a chart with charge times based on battery size.

You need to know your battery size and your starting voltage and the amp rating of your charger.

A conventional battery shows a different voltage at the same point of discharge.

I added the blue line to this chart, but I am not sure they measure the voltage the same way, but I imagine it is accurate enough.

But an example might be that if you have a Spark 500 and the voltage after sitting over night reads 12.2V, then you are about 50% discharged and you can look at the charts and determine that a 10A charger will take about 0.75 hour, a 5A about 1.5hours, a 1A about 7 or 8 hours, but actual charging time is effected by how that charger works, temperature, and maybe some other factors.

 

Approaching 14.8-15V is an indication that you are nearing fully charged OR you need to switch to a lower charging amperage.

Hawker does not recommend chargers that exceed 15V.

Gary Cheek has proven that to be hype because he has had great success exceeding that voltage.

My guess is that Hawker recommends not exceeding 15V because some batteries will fail if the 15+voltage is maintained for too long or the temperature is too high.

But that does not mean you can't exceed 15V nor that you won't benefit from that higher than recommended voltage.

 

 

Hawker and Deltran had a bit of an online feud along time ago. My guess is that Hawker blamed failed batteries on Deltran and Deltran blamed it on Hawker. Deltran said they no longer recommended the Hawker Odyssey because of its demand of atleast something like 14.4V and Hawker said they longer recommend Deltran because they don't give atleast something like 14.4V.

So, trickle chargers may only be good for maintaining batteries that are not too discharged. Some batteries may need more that the 14.4V.

 

So, are Conventional batteries less picky than AGM about charging demands?

I think so, but using a charger that does not meet Hawkers recomendations can be fine for AGM.

I just think more intelligence and knowledge is required for using battery chargers that exceed 15V, regardless of AGM or not.

[docc]

I was surprised to find my year old Hawker at 12.56v. I have a 1 amp charger that I put to it for a short time ( an hour or so) but the voltage quickly rose above 15v.

I then discharged the battery with the headlamp on high and recharged to the 14.8 v level.

 

I hope I did it some good but it's a black art, this battery thing . . .