Power Commander and 2003 Models

[Mike Stewart]

Does anyone out there know if the PC III will work on the 2003 Lemans?

I know the mapping will be different, but will the connectors be the same?

 

Thanks,

Mike

[callison]

I seriously doubt that the connector is changed for this year. If a different computer were specified, than maybe, but even then the connector would probably be the same. I think Ghezzi Brian's use a different ECU, yet the connector is the same. Part of this is due to meeting emissions requirements. Change too much, and you have to get the system re-qualified again, a very expensive proposition. Why not just order your new 2003 LeMans with the TI pipe set Mike?

[Cliff]

That's a hard call. I heard the some of latest Dukes had moved to a new controller. Don't know if Guzzi have moved on also. If they have most things will be different. If its still the 15M then I would say its all the same.

 

Either way get the bike first and see how it goes. The PC is optional not mandatory. The standard FI setup seems to improve each year anyhow.

[Mike Stewart]

Why not just order your new 2003 LeMans with the TI pipe set Mike?

The main reason for buying the 2003 Lemans was to make it into a sport touring machine. I need to lower the exhaust to make room for the Givi bags and lower the rear pegs two inches. With the nice size of the fairing and huge waterproof bags this bike will be the ultimate machine. The factory ti pipes and ecu are expensive and have more upswing of the mufflers. That is why they also give you new rear passenger peg brackets. The ecu is mapped for the pipes only, what if you do other mods? I will stick to the PCIII for adjustability. The lemans I rode last weekend had the factory ti mufflers and I assume ecu. The fit looked off cause the oval cans were not straight when looking from the rear. The performance of the 03 with ti mufflers felt less than my 00 V11S with Stucchi crossover , Mistrals and PCIII. This is by the seat of my pants dynometer.

 

Anyway, ahh, I. ehh, traded in my California Special Sport today for a 2003 Lemans Rosso Corsa. I am now on the Dark Side! By the way, the color fits me!

 

Mike

[callison]

I can empathize. Every time I see the LeMans Corsa I think about trading in a bunch of bikes. My wife is having none of that though. So, are you riding the Corsa Wednesday or the V11 Sport?

[al_roethlisberger]

*heh*... I know exactly which bike you bought Mike

 

Congrats

 

...so, did you get a chance to "say hello" to my bike while you were there?

 

al

[rudi]

Mike, don't know if you already have the bike:

the v11 rosso corsa comes in two types, one with a catalyst (that's the way to write it?) and there's also a version without.

I'll try to upload a picture of the catalyst but anyhow it's in the x-over.

 

I bought a 2003 rosso corsa in holland, didn't know at that time but the bunch of rosso corsa's sent to holland (anyhow the 4 I've seen) all come without a catalyst and they have the 2002 V11 ECU , the date is printed on the ecu with a sticker.

I think the reason why I have a version without a catalyst is because it's not required by law here (yet).

Personally :finger: the catalyst version as it only causes troubles the way BMW had before they dual plugged the new types, actually the reason why they dual-plugged the BMW's is because the poor performance due to too lean settings with the catalyst versions .

I know this because I almost bought a BMW instead of the Guzzi.

For what I know with the bmw's they had a powerdip when increasing throttle after cruising at a steady rpm, a lot of guys overhere all changed their eproms and the 2003 models almost all come with dual-plugging which is supposed to help.

 

So imo the guzzi with catalyst will get the same problems as bmw had before they dual plugged their engines.

 

I suppose you don't speak german but anyhow in germany a catalyst is required so they have the other version and I've read several posts on the german board that they all complain about a powerdip somewhere in the 3-4000 , well I don't find any powerdip in mine, only extra's I've added is Giannelli ti-oval pipes and a bit re-adjusting of the ECU settings by the dealer.

In the manual of the 2003 model (V11/Lemans/rosso corsa) there are 2 wiring diagrams, the one with the catalyst has item 59 (lambda probe) and the wiring comes out of the ecu and goes to the x-over.

 

the one without a catalyst just misses item 59 on the leectric wiring and of course the lambda probe.

 

So, don't know the laws in the usa but if they sell the catalyst versions

I think they are fitted with a newer type ecu and you cannot just replace the x-over, think that's why guzzi comes with a new ecu when you buy their pipes.

 

Hope I did,nt spoil your day

 

ciao from

[rudi]

Mike, just forgot to add:

the 2003 version (with and without the catalyst) has the balancing pipe at the first part of the exhausts

so, in my opinion I think that the powercommander mappings for the "old" V11 might not be a good idea?

 

ciao

[dlaing]

Way to go Mike! I hope you will be taking the bike to Prescott this weekend!

If you did get the catalyst version, I suppose the benefit other than cleaner air for those riding in your tracks, is that the O2 sensor provides a closed loop which THEORETICALLY eliminates the need for a power commander. Unfortunately the O2 sensors can cause the symptoms that Rudi described on the BMW. It all depends on how well engineered the ECU loopback is, and possibly how well the map matches the bike without the loopback. Meaning if you add slip ons the loopback system may or may not be able to fully compensate for your aftermarket mufflers.

[al_roethlisberger]

hrmm, this will be interesting to follow indeed. I know the bike Mike purchased, as I saw it days after Moto Italiano received it some time back, and have oogled it while visiting the shop many times. In fact, it is the bike that was up on the display "shelf" where I was able to note the new welded-on plate to reinforce the OEM x-over, as I reported some weeks ago.

 

...the reason I give all this background is that even though I was able to check out the bike several times, I didn't see the right-side of the bike, especially from under-neath, which from the photo above is where the O2 sensor is located on the x-over.

 

So, Mike, does your new Rosso have the 02 sensor? I would be surprised if it didn't, as California has some of the most stringent emissions restrictions in the USA, and in the World. This would be important to note in our FAQ for the 2003's(do they all have this, or just the Rosso?) and also to keep in mind for future modifications, and the requisite retuning necessary or not.

 

To that point, it will also be very interesting to see if the closed-loop system is well-thought-out enough to take reasonble modifictions, such as new cans, x-over, airbox, into account automatically or not. That would be very advantageous if so. Mike, you'll have to keep us informed!

 

al

 

 

P.S.

 

Question: It's asked above if Mike has the catalyst or non-catalyst version of the OEM x-over. I could be wrong, but I don't think any of the x-overs, whether they have the new 02 sensor bung or not, are actually catalysts.

 

As far as I know, all the OEM x-overs are something of a "muffler" that has some SS wool or baffles in the middle, which can be cut-out. But I don't think any of them perform any catalytic reaction??

[Mike Stewart]

Hi all,

 

I won't be picking the Lemans Rosso Corsa up till I get back from Arizona. It was suggested to me not want to break it in on interstate 5.

I did not notice any 02 sensor either and I have not read or heard of any of the Lemans coming to the US with the catalyst other than the new 750, I could be wrong. I do have the stock crossover off the V11sport that may find its way on the 03 if it is a catalyst. Anyway, I guess I will find out next Tuesday when I pick the bike up.

 

The main reason I was asking about the Powercommander working on the 03 Lemans was I did not want to experiment and plug one in to find out that I fried the ECU. Maybe I should have Jason at Moto Italiano plug one in for me.

 

BMW has been using 02 sensors and cats for years, they have been in the clean air act for a long time now. That is why they always had the surge problem at cruise (steady speed). As the 02 went rich to lean or lean to rich as all 02 sensors do, the bike would do this surge thing. The fix was to bypass the 02 sensor and install a reostat to adjust the C0 mixture. If the Corsa has an 02, I will give you an guess what is going to happen to it.

 

My thoughts were to buy the standard 03 Lemans in red, but Jason offered the Corsa for $2500. more and all of you know that I really have a soft spot in my heart for the Ohlins suspension. I just could not turn it down. Just think , a bike I won't have to tinker with.

 

Untill next Tuesday,

Mike

[al_roethlisberger]

..hrmm, I wonder if Jason will sell me the '03 Ohlins suspension for $2500

 

Somehow I doubt it

 

al

[Lex]

Mike,

 

FWIW, I think the surging problems with the oil heads have much more to do with the god-awful FI design and poor cylinder head design than the catalyst and O2 sensor. You can cover up the problem with more fuel or with two spark plugs (more likely to start a good "fire" in the combustion chamber) but until BMW produces an FI design that allows the throttle bodies to stay in sync for more than ten seconds or, at the very least, provides a TPS for the right throttle body they are just putting Band-Aids on the problem.

 

Don't blame the emission control equipment for BMW's crapy work. My K1200 has both O2 sensors and a catalyst, meets the same pollution standards as the R259's and it "carburets" just about perfectly. Several other bikes have cats and O2 sensors and they also work much better than the oil heads. This may have something to do with the fact that every FI design I have ever seen, except the current BMW twins, links the throttle bodies rigidly to each other and uses rods rather than Bowden cables to link the individual throttle bodies. To BMW for a bad design and ten years without a real fix.

 

Lex (ex-R259 owner)

 

And now back to Moto Guzzi content...

[rudi]

Well I have to disagree here, the emission control on the bmw boxers sure was/is the cause for the poor performance of the bikes in 2001 and 2002.

The ones sold here in holland were up to german emission standards which I believe are amongst the highest in the world and the guys I know all changed their eproms, it was not a mechanical flaw since the bikes worked way better with different eproms.

 

But to go back on guzzi's

 

I'm curious about some things:

 

Theoretically if the MG set-up is good there is no need for a powercommander.

If you add a PCIII because you change the intake / exhaust system - either the mufflers or the x-over or both then you take away the catalyst system, the lambda probe is in the x-over and for what I understood from the mechanic at Teo Lamers the catalyst is in the muffler.

Well isn't that illegal?, it sure is over here, it's already illegal if you produce more that 80dB of sound.

 

Moreover, the 2003 version has a different compression, different valve timings and presumably the catalyst version has a different ecu so I would guess that a PCIII would fit but there sure are no maps (yet)

 

btw, and I have to agree with this, the mechanic I spoke with who adjusted my bike said to me that a powercommander on a guzzi doesn't help that much, most of the problems with settings on a guzzi occur in the range 1500-2500rpm and I have been told many times by friends with guzzi's to try to keep it at least at 3000 rpm, from 3000 to 7800 mine works great.

 

but congratulations with the bike, to go for the ohlins was exactly my reason to buy this version and they work perfect.

The manual only gives the factory settings but at the ohlinssite you can find all the data you need in pdf files.

 

 

I'll go for a spin myself, my tankbag arrived after 2 months so I'm anxious to try and see if it fits okay since the tank is a bit different than from the older models.

 

cheers

[Guest JohnInNH]

Theoretically if the MG set-up is good there is no need for a powercommander.

If you add a PCIII because you change the intake / exhaust system - either the mufflers or the x-over or both then you take away the catalyst system, the lambda probe is in the x-over and for what I understood from the mechanic at Teo Lamers the catalyst is in the muffler.

Well isn't that illegal?, it sure is over here, it's already illegal if you produce more that 80dB of sound.

 

Moreover, the 2003 version has a different compression, different valve timings and presumably the catalyst version has a different ecu so I would guess that a PCIII would fit but there sure are no maps (yet)

 

btw, and I have to agree with this, the mechanic I spoke with who adjusted my bike said to me that a powercommander on a guzzi doesn't help that much, most of the problems with settings on a guzzi occur in the range 1500-2500rpm and I have been told many times by friends with guzzi's to try to keep it at least at 3000 rpm, from 3000 to 7800 mine works great.

 

Hummm.... The PCIII not helping the Guzzi "that" much? What you talking about?

 

 

PCIII

 

I don't see the PC III as a "fix" but just enabling the user to be able to adjust the mixture. The changes to my exhaust would have burned valves for sure if I had not added fuel. Flexibility is the key. I just wish it could do timing too.

 

My 02 Le Mans with the PC III, x-over, and slip-ons runs purrrrrfectly at just over idle on up. It is a real pleasure to be able to putt along at 2K-2.5K in town. I see no need to Buzz along at over 3K at <30 MPH

 

One of the reasons I LOVE the v twin is the nice low end.

 

Todd E. over at Guzzitech.com has some real believers. I doubt they would agree with your wrench.

 

Even without a "map" it has merit. Put in the "Null Map" then tweak where, or when ya need it. An example is you can add a choke by adding fuel at 0-500 rpm and 0 TPS. FYI a custom map is the way to go.

 

I believe my bike could benefit from more time on the Dyno as the custom map I have was rushed, but it is a LOT better than before. I would love to get it down to PA and have the folks at "Fast By Ferracci" do it!

 

However... I agree, if you had a custom map made for your bike flashed into your computer, you would have less to go wrong and could benefit from being able to tweak the timing too, but would not have the adjustability later.