V11 Sport vs R1100S

[Steve G.]

I tried that once here - nobody seemed to want to talk about it much:

 

88193[/snapback]

Actually quite similar lines. If only the Guzzi was street legal, then it could be a full discussion in the making.

Ciao, Steve G.

[pete roper]

Not true.  He has just recently shown a decided soft spot for Fantic Chopper mopeds.  I'm not sure that one can get any softer than that.

 

mike

VMCC MZ Marque Specialist

88132[/snapback]

 

Mate, I used to own Lilacs! You don't get softer than that! 3 x LS18's for starters, now THAT'S soft!

 

I'm not absolutely against anything that isn't Guzzi, far from it. But I DO detest muddlesome complexity for it's own sake, I find the endless quest for more power that few people ever use for more than a few seconds and PARTICULARLY the Sacred Cow of German superiority that always follows BMW's round like an abandoned puppy tedious and annoying.

 

I will give them credit for experimenting with a new front end design. For my money Guzzi could take a leaf out of their book and thumb their noses at orthodoxy and put some of their meagre development budget into developing a front end that actually separates the steering and suspension functions, some sort of HCS system would be brilliant.

 

Look at the other things about them though? They all run through gearboxes like a dog with dysentry. My mate john turned up on his V11 LeMans one Sunday in Bungendore when the BMW club were here and they were all over it. One bloke said he thought the bike looked and sounded brilliant but he "Needed the BMW reliability." In the very next sentence he was telling us how he'd had the gearbox rebuilt three times under warranty and his tacho on a 2 year old bike only showed 25,000Km! How reliable does it have to be if the longest ride you ever undertake is from Canberra to Bungendore for Coffee on a Sunday morning! I know we're weird in the country but @#!#$# Me! It's not like you're going to be eaten by the twin-heads on the 30Km of road between the two.

 

Then there is their vile FI system and the fact they surge and pop and burp the whole time and shag out their brake rotor bobbins and their horrible version of the CARC drive must be the ugliest thing ever bolted to the back of a motorbike! It looks like a trench mortar that's been marinaded in vomit! It must weigh about a zillion Kg as well? It can't be lighter than the CARC which is in itself a bit of a porker and none too pretty!

 

There are plenty of motorbikes around that I think LOOK stunning. The only problems I have with them are that I can see how bloody dificult it is going to be to work on the wretched things, I think the amount of power they offer is a joke and I can see that they aren't designed to be a true 'Consumer Durable', at least not in terms that fit MY description of same. Sure, I love Guzzis and I fully accept that I often come across as an irracible, one eyed, bigot. This is because I am but there are plenty of other machines on the market I like, the thing is nobody else, apart from lunatics like me, would rate them. So there is no point in talking about them.

 

I also love small bikes, always have, always will. If great fat turd like me can have fun on a single cylinder 250 on a tight road you'd have to push the bloat-o-meter off the scale to be able to claim that you couldn't have fun on one!

 

Pete

[g.forrest]

i must admit i agree with you on most things pete and am not abought to disagree now on those comments. i just wanted to add to your point of little bikes and fun, simplicity and reliability.many moons ago i owned a honda xl 250 motorsport the second model out actualy traded cb750 k2 for it, rode it to work everyday 60 k round trip[for years, once to cape york, two alpine rallys and many other rallys during the time, had no problems holding 120k on it all day. in its final trim i fitted 305 kit with 32mm mikuni and power pipe and took on two friends for a race up bellbird hill kurrajong heights bells line of road. from a standing start bottom to top. and won [it pulled like a 14 year old] beating cb 750 and z 900 kawa. any way don't want to rattle on too much but had just returned home on me muz when i read your post and yes the muz is of a similiar cheap reliable 53000 k not a problem[ oil changes check valve clearance every ten or so kk and replace tires and drive as needed.all the rest is pure grin. quote=pete roper,May 4 2006, 03:55 PM]

Mate, I used to own Lilacs! You don't get softer than that! 3 x LS18's for starters, now THAT'S soft!

 

I'm not absolutely against anything that isn't Guzzi, far from it. But I DO detest muddlesome complexity for it's own sake, I find the endless quest for more power that few people ever use for more than a few seconds and PARTICULARLY the Sacred Cow of German superiority that always follows BMW's round like an abandoned puppy tedious and annoying.

 

I will give them credit for experimenting with a new front end design. For my money Guzzi could take a leaf out of their book and thumb their noses at orthodoxy and put some of their meagre development budget into developing a front end that actually separates the steering and suspension functions, some sort of HCS system would be brilliant.

 

Look at the other things about them though? They all run through gearboxes like a dog with dysentry. My mate john turned up on his V11 LeMans one Sunday in Bungendore when the BMW club were here and they were all over it. One bloke said he thought the bike looked and sounded brilliant but he "Needed the BMW reliability." In the very next sentence he was telling us how he'd had the gearbox rebuilt three times under warranty and his tacho on a 2 year old bike only showed 25,000Km! How reliable does it have to be if the longest ride you ever undertake is from Canberra to Bungendore for Coffee on a Sunday morning! I know we're weird in the country but @#!#$# Me! It's not like you're going to be eaten by the twin-heads on the 30Km of road between the two.

 

Then there is their vile FI system and the fact they surge and pop and burp the whole time and shag out their brake rotor bobbins and their horrible version of the CARC drive must be the ugliest thing ever bolted to the back of a motorbike! It looks like a trench mortar that's been marinaded in vomit! It must weigh about a zillion Kg as well? It can't be lighter than the CARC which is in itself a bit of a porker and none too pretty!

 

There are plenty of motorbikes around that I think LOOK stunning. The only problems I have with them are that I can see how bloody dificult it is going to be to work on the wretched things, I think the amount of power they offer is a joke and I can see that they aren't designed to be a true 'Consumer Durable', at least not in terms that fit MY description of same. Sure, I love Guzzis and I fully accept that I often come across as an irracible, one eyed, bigot. This is because I am but there are plenty of other machines on the market I like, the thing is nobody else, apart from lunatics like me, would rate them. So there is no point in talking about them.

 

I also love small bikes, always have, always will. If great fat turd like me can have fun on a single cylinder 250 on a tight road you'd have to push the bloat-o-meter off the scale to be able to claim that you couldn't have fun on one!

 

Pete

88196[/snapback]

[mdude]

"It looks like a trench mortar that's been marinaded in vomit!"

 

Man, you're totally Monty Python

 

chuckle chuckle.....

[g.forrest]

[quotei new i'd seen him before. =mdude,May 4 2006, 06:26 PM]

"It looks like a trench mortar that's been marinaded in vomit!"

 

Man, you're totally Monty Python

 

chuckle chuckle.....

88205[/snapback]

[jihem]

i passed one the other day.

It looks SO HORRIBLE from the back.

If you think the 999's exhausts are bad, check the one on this beemer...

[Greg Field]

Here's some perspective from a relatively new V11 owner, though I have ridden many in the past:

 

The more you sort the suspension, the more you notice the limitations of the frame. To me, it feels very lacking in tortional strength, especially the later ones with the larger rear tire—despite the added struts and stuff on the later frames.

 

Remember what this frame is, after all: a field-expedient design built from a sketch on a napkin by a guy who's not a trained engineer, meant to make an old Guzzi competitive in racing for one more year in the late 1980s. This is not meant as a slam against designer or frame (I know Dr. John and have and love one of these bikes). It simply is reality.

 

So, you can get the suspension perfect, and you'll still have all kinds of wiggling going on when leaned over and going over bumps.

 

There's a reason that the fastest Guzzi riders I know stick with Tonti frames . . . or even loop frames

[Steve G.]

Here's some perspective from a relatively new V11 owner, though I have ridden many in the past:

 

The more you sort the suspension, the more you notice the limitations of the frame. To me, it feels very lacking in tortional strength, especially the later ones with the larger rear tire—despite the added struts and stuff on the later frames.

 

Remember what this frame is, after all: a field-expedient design built from a sketch on a napkin by a guy who's not a trained engineer, meant to make an old Guzzi competitive in racing for one more year in the late 1980s. This is not meant as a slam against designer or frame (I know Dr. John and have and love one of these bikes). It simply is reality.

 

So, you can get the suspension perfect, and you'll still have all kinds of wiggling going on when leaned over and going over bumps.

 

There's a reason that the fastest Guzzi riders I know stick with Tonti frames . . . or even loop frames

Confirming widespread magazine reports when the V11 first appeared, that the frame composure at speed offered a "willowy" feel [ie, a willow tree in the wind]. Just the same, it is a machine I am glad I own. And while I'm sure spending thousands in new suspension components, and more having the equipement tuned by the guys at Race Tech, I have sorted this bike to a degree that, with my experience at getting bikes quickly through corners that handle like they've got hoof & mouth disease using sheer stubbourness, I'm able to pace most local riders easily, until the road straightens, and they turn on the light switch of their superbike. No boast. Try hustling in the corners on an old Kawasaki 750h2, or a CBX [my god!] and you will find the handling of a bone stock V11 a revelation. Riding bikes like these really do build your riding style around corner speed preservation.

Regarding Chris's confirmation of the handling and sure footedness of an early seventies 750 Laverda SF, I can understand why he brought up this thread. It was the substantially made and strongly built frame that make the little 750 rail. Much like the Toni frames, these classic designs did not use the engine/gearbox as a stressed member, as it would have affected handling. Modern computer generated stressed member designs are much better these days of course.

Ciao, Steve G.

[beauchemin]

Regarding Chris's confirmation of the handling and sure footedness of an early seventies 750 Laverda SF, I can understand why he brought up this thread. It was the substantially made and strongly built frame that make the little 750 rail. Much like the Toni frames, these classic designs did not use the engine/gearbox as a stressed member, as it would have affected handling. Modern computer generated stressed member designs are much better these days of course.

Hey Steve - you are mostly right, except that the Laverda 750 does use the engine as a stressed member (even though the frame is so BEEFY it probably doesn't have to). It is a fabulous 70s bike in all respects, except for the vibration. I called it my "portable earthquake". This is the reason why I'm looking for a V7 Sport - a combination of my favourite engine configuration and some solid handling.

[Steve G.]

Hey Steve - you are mostly right, except that the Laverda 750 does use the engine as a stressed member (even though the frame is so BEEFY it probably doesn't have to).  It is a fabulous 70s bike in all respects, except for the vibration.  I called it my "portable earthquake".  This is the reason why I'm looking for a V7 Sport - a combination of my favourite engine configuration and some solid handling.

88222[/snapback]

I agree on all points Chris.

If you get a chance, try out a 750 Norton Atlas for vibration scale. The 750 Laverda twin pales by comparison.

Ciao, Steve G.

[jbuzbee]

Again, I don't want to seem like I'm a troll - far from it. I still long for a guzzi - no matter how much you all complain!

 

This summer I'm going to build a cafe. My choices are: a 2004 HD sportster base (if you've ever ridden a pre-04 sportster you know what I mean), a california (which will be stripped to the frame and drivetrain with bitubo front and rear running on forged wheels) or a TL 1000 base.

 

The sportster would be the easiest; plenty of after-market - but the Guzzi would just be so damned cool. Here's the problem: If the bike handles the way I plan, stops the way I'll set it up, then it better be damned dependable because I'll put a couple thousand miles on it a month. Who here will garantee me that? I can take care of the rest, and I figure the tonti is the best frame. But will I be out in the backroads, sitting on the side with a relay problem, a clutch problem, a shifter problem???

 

My BMW has never let me down.

 

So say all: Guzzi?

 

jb

[Ouiji Veck]

Hmmm...

My 02 LeMans is a brick @ 130 or in an 80mph sweeper.

It's set up stiff enough to take you fillings out on a bad road

but screw bad roads. Hows a Farrari handle on a bad road?

You can't serve 2 masters.

Nope...80 mph sweepers is my favorite thing. If the roads

torn up I'll slow down and do some sight seeing...I like that too.

[Anthro]

Hi Jb,

 

I am commuting almost everyday (70 miles) to work on my California. Its a tonti frame, with the hydraulic valves and single plate clutch.

I have the bike since 2 miles, now I have 8500 miles on it. The Bike is solid, it handles and it is quick for its class. After 5000 miles is much smoother.

I have no problems with it ! I was expecting to have to work around moods (I read too much about the spine frame Guzzi .). It was not the case at all .

 

The cam was changed at 6000 miles (it was a recall on it) but no it was not, and it is not a problem now.

 

The Clutch makes noise indeed, but I was aware of that, and it is the same since it was new (I guess 'no change = no problem ? ).

 

I had an non issue with the gear box, but it was the regulations of the rather complex shifter, nothing to do with the actual box.

 

I have a California Sport Aluminum, it is a very attractive bike, BUT If you can choose, get an EV, BECAUSE, the wheels are spocked but can take tubeless, and the suspension is regulable. The standard suspension is on the hard side but I like it -nevertheless choices are nice-

 

Now I have a dilema, to start spending to modify this bike into something even more fun, or to hold tight and keep saving for another MG...

---

It is really fun to see where people attention goes when you park your 'factory standard MG' next to a shiny and customized group of Harleys.

---

I'd love to have the time and money to even think about buying a bike to customize... Here is my take of your choices:

 

If you are in the mood for a rocket I'll take the TDL base, may be remaping the FI computer would smooth the engine into a SV comfort zone....

 

If you crave for a great ride, and do not mind people walking around your bike, then play Guzzi.

 

If you want to play Aladin and fly on a matress, then add a turbo to awake the dead corpse of the 883 Harley .

 

---

The BMW, to me is another story, I really like them, my favorite is the Rockster... but - I may lack of imagination- but customizing attempts from individuals and factory, usually render a bike looking overdone, or over-styled ...

 

The attachment is an example, in concept I should like the bike at the picture, but in flesh ??? it looks -to me like a 'million yen' (I know it is german ! ).

 

 

---

It seems that you are going to have a brilliant summer I hope you keep us updated by posting some pictures.

 

---

 

Anthro

[g.forrest]

thats gota be the ugliest bm ever made,.and in the running for ugliest motorcycle imho.

[jrt]

I'll put a couple thousand miles on it a month.  Who here will garantee me that?  I can take care of the rest, and I figure the tonti is the best frame.  But will I be out in the backroads, sitting on the side with a relay problem, a clutch problem, a shifter problem???

88236[/snapback]

 

 

 

There's no guarantees, but if you build up a Tonti frame with good parts- it should easily run thousands of miles every month without problems. You will have to do some maintenance, though. Guzzi definitely has had issues with relays, connectors, the odd cast part and some poor choices of bearing retainers, but I think that it's Pete Roper who characterized most of the problems with Guzzi as the bean counters. 99% of the problems I've encountered on my bikes are operator stupidity. The base machine is brick-shithouse solid. Build up a good looking Guzzi, use good parts in it and it'll run like stink and last twice as long. The 5 speed has been around for-freakin'-ever. The clutch is bulletproof- use a RAM clutch if you like a lighter feel, but I'd advise against used Scura clutches.

 

Anthro- that is one ugly bike. Whoever designed it had a hangover, or worse.