V11 big ends gone at only 9,000 miles

[Steve G.]

As I've been telling you guys, this is not unusual on the V11s. We've seen four now since April at Moto Intl.

 

Watch your oil level . . .

92789[/snapback]

It's not oil level Greg. It's Luigi not blasting the machining crap/swarf out of the oil journals well enough!

Ciao, Steve G.

[pete roper]

I really dunno about that Steve? While I have seen some swarf in sumps and the like you have to remember that the actual galleries in a Guzzi, especially the V11's, after the filter are very, very short. In fact on the V11's the main delivery pipes are just that, pipes, not the cast in galleries used on the older motors.

 

Anything *before* the filter would be caught by the filter. Really the only galleries are the ones from the bottom of the block, front and rear, to the main bearings. If there was a great big bit of sh!te in one of those it would stuff one or other of the mains before it got to the big ends.

 

The oiling system on a Guzzi is not only very simple, it's also very short and has comparatively few bearings to supply. Mains, a pair of big ends and the cam bearings. Thats it as far as plain bearings go. Everything else is fed by splash and spray!

 

So why would big ends go? Well either through lack of oil or insufficient pressure or there has to have been a problem with either the rod that holds the bearings or the journal of the crank.

 

Most of us who have experience of such things *know* or have heard of the 'Oil light flicker' on broad sump models. I've explained why this is such a worry in other threads and Greg is now telling us that Moto International is seeing V11's with torched big-ends on a seemingly regular basis. So why V11's? I mean the late model Sport i's, Centauros and Daytona RS's all use the same sump/oil delivery set up. So why V11's? It makes no sense unless there is another reason as well.

 

I do remember Amadeo Castelani of Raceco UK saying that early V11's had horrible connecting rods that were both heavy and stretch prone. Now I *think* that that was all sorted out but there is still the possibility of the rods being wonky. If the big ends are prone to ovalization then this too will torch the big ends quicker than you can say "That's a funny noise!" For that reason, regardless of the condition of the crankpin, (and I've salvaged many nitrided crankpins, including the one on the crank of the current roundfin racer by giving them the 'poor man's linish' with a yard long length of 1200 grain wet'n'dry!) I'd be taking the rods out and checking them for length, ovality, stretching or anything else untoward. Yes, I know it's more work but if you stick in new shells and pay for new, expensive, rod bolts it would be a pain if the whole sorry business occurs again within a similar period of time.

 

Really, the only truly *right* option is to get the donk out and strip it. Unless of course there is some simple explanation like a loose oil pick-up, loose thermostat/oil filter housing, loose feed pipe, loose filter or PR valve all of which can be inspected simply by removing the sump.

 

Without actually taking the thing to bits myself and being able to make a hands on diagnosis this is all really pissing in the wind but I think we can take it as a given that there *is* a problem with pick-up and oil surge in the V11's, especially when used hard, (A fact reinforced by the fact that the Breva/Griso oil pick-up and delivery system has been completely re-vamped and a completely new sump design installed, it's not just to make the filter easier to get at!) and this being the case I know if I owned one I'd definitely be fitting some sort of baffle/windage plate in it to try and combat the problem. Enzo has a modified one of mine in his V11 and someone has just posted a pic of theirs in another thread. If I could get a template of Enzo's or the other one I can get 'em knocked out pretty cheap in Queanbeyan just up the road from me but I don't often have access to a 'Broad Sump model to play with so it's unlikely I'll be able to make one soon otherwise.

 

Look, to be honest I don't know for sure, but that's my worth and i hope it's helpful and makes sense.

 

Pete

[Wick]

Well, I'd rather not start an oil thread here, but this is my theory. And this is specific to the big end rod bearing issue.

Two of my V11's have come from MPH and the Haven's shop has done all the work on them, including my first '03/02 Sport Naked that came from the discounter. It was this bike's problem with the big end rod bearing knock that got me down to their shop in the first place. Mike has told me to use the factory recommended 5W40 oil in a synthetic, period. I live in the Mid-South where we get high 90's temps in the Summer and I always thought it was too light a specification. I also assumed that air cooled engines like the V11 had large clearances similar to air cooled aircraft engines and needed a thicker oil to seal, clean and lubricate. I believe now that the clearances are tighter and the need for thicker oil in the heat of Memphis summers just isn't an issue. I think the most damage/wear is incurring on start up and this is why Moto Guzzi is putting out this 5W40 spec oil recommendation.

 

Wick

[pete roper]

Well, I'd rather not start an oil thread here, but this is my theory. And this is specific to the big end rod bearing issue.

Two of my V11's have come from MPH and the Haven's shop has done all the work on them, including my first '03/02 Sport Naked that came from the discounter. It was this bike's problem with the big end rod bearing knock that got me down to their shop in the first place. Mike has told me to use the factory recommended 5W40 oil in a synthetic, period. I live in the Mid-South where we get high 90's temps in the Summer and I always thought it was too light a specification.  I also assumed that air cooled engines like the V11 had large clearances similar to air cooled aircraft engines and needed a thicker oil to seal, clean and lubricate. I believe now that the clearances are tighter and the need for thicker oil in the heat of Memphis summers just isn't an issue. I think the most damage/wear is incurring on start up and this is why Moto Guzzi is putting out this 5W40 spec oil recommendation.

 

Wick

92821[/snapback]

 

While I respect what Mike is saying the issue of oil pressure at start up? Well, it isn't an issue. The motor hasn't changed appreciably in thirty years and all Guzzis get pressure up in much, much less time than your average car big end gets oil from cold.

 

I personally agree with Greg's theory that the specification for a 5/40 was linked to the arrival of the hydro motors in the Calis where not only pressure but also VOLUME was an issue as the lifters have to effectively be *flooded* to work properly. It continues to be specified smply 'cos nobody has bothered writing another engine specific handbook!

 

The clearance in a plain bearing is essentially the same regardless of oil viscosity. Certainly you *can* get the bearing to wedge properly using a thicker oil if the clearance is larger than ideal but in real terms it's not something than needs to be taken into account, at least it shouldn't be on any *newish* motor.

 

Sorry, but no matter what was being used, a 5/40 full synth, a 20/50 mineral or even ground up cocker-spaniels with the lumps strained out, there has to be some other physical reason for big end shells to go tits up at such a low mileage.

 

Pete

[Guest PhilP]

...So why would big ends go? Well either through lack of oil or insufficient pressure or there has to have been a problem with either the rod that holds the bearings or the journal of the crank...

 

Pete

92820[/snapback]

 

Pete, I'm inclined to agree, although I think if there was a problem with the rod or the journal the bearing would have gone a while ago. I did 2500 miles across Europe last year and the same year before (both trips after the flickering oil light syndrome), mostly on motorways and mostly between 80 - 100mph, although there was the occasional foray just to see how quick she would go.

 

That leaves a lack of oil or insufficient pressure as being the cause.

 

The dealer's coming to pick up the bike this week, as I don't want to do the work myself until an MG approved technician has looked at it independently. If the failure can be attributed to something mechanical then I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for a contribution from MG given the low mileage, regular maintenance and that it's only 2 months out of warranty.

 

It will be interesting to see the dealer's diagnosis - and if I can be there when they take it all apart, even better.

 

Time will tell...

[Guest PhilP]

Sorry, but no matter what was being used, a 5/40 full synth, a 20/50 mineral or even ground up cocker-spaniels with the lumps strained out, there has to be some other physical reason for big end shells to go tits up at such a low mileage.

 

Pete

92822[/snapback]

 

I tried two litres of cocker spaniel in an old Norton Commando once - dropped a valve a mile later during an overtake. I think a hair clogged one of the oilways!

 

Stuck with 5w/40 in the guzzi!

 

Phil

[waspp]

Is it at all possible that the bering shells are improperly manufactured and begin their life with excessive clearances? I have found with other european engine componets a wide variety of manufacturing tolerances. Specifically when ordering a bearing set for a european tractor I was sent a gaggle of bearing halves and the instructions told me to sort through the various sizes till I got the clearance I desired and throw the rest out! Has this problem been seen in any other Guzzi models?

 

waspp

[Dan M]

Is it at all possible that the bering shells are improperly manufactured and begin their life with excessive clearances? I have found with other european engine componets a wide variety of manufacturing tolerances. Specifically when ordering a bearing set for a european tractor I was sent a gaggle of bearing halves and the instructions told me to sort through the various sizes till I got the clearance I desired and throw the rest out! Has this problem been seen in any other Guzzi models?

 

waspp

92825[/snapback]

 

 

I think if it was a factory defect it would have surfaced sooner. Typically it would have been a gradual increase in noise. An instant failure is almost always oil starvation. Perhaps something got in and blocked the passage in the crank or maybe the filter came loose, though this would turn the light on (if it works).

[pete roper]

I dunno. With a factory fitted crank they would just haul the bits off the shelf and assemble 'em, if there was a problem with the shells or the journal being the wrong size it could be a problem.

 

When I do a bottom end though, if the crank is re-ground it's only done AFTER the undersize bearings have been bought, the rods have been re-sized and then the crank is ground to the correct clearance for the assembled rods so it's not a problem. It would also be well nigh impossible to diagnose whether this was teh case after the bearings have failed though as the rods biffing on the crank may well of caused some ovalization of the big-end eyes and who could say whether this was a pre-existing condition or a result of the failure

 

Pete

[Steve G.]

I really dunno about that Steve? While I have seen some swarf in sumps and the like you have to remember that the actual galleries in a Guzzi, especially the V11's, after the filter are very, very short. In fact on the V11's the main delivery pipes are just that, pipes, not the cast in galleries used on the older motors.

 

Anything *before* the filter would be caught by the filter. Really the only galleries are the ones from the bottom of the block, front and rear, to the main bearings. If there was a great big bit of sh!te in one of those it would stuff one or other of the mains before it got to the big ends.

 

The oiling system on a Guzzi is not only very simple, it's also very short and has comparatively few bearings to supply. Mains, a pair of big ends and the cam bearings. Thats it as far as plain bearings go. Everything else is fed by splash and spray!

 

So why would big ends go? Well either through lack of oil or insufficient pressure or there has to have been a problem with either the rod that holds the bearings or the journal of the crank.

 

Most of us who have experience of such things *know* or have heard of the 'Oil light flicker' on broad sump models. I've explained why this is such a worry in other threads and Greg is now telling us that Moto International is seeing V11's with torched big-ends on a seemingly regular basis. So why V11's? I mean the late model Sport i's, Centauros and Daytona RS's all use the same sump/oil delivery set up. So why V11's? It makes no sense unless there is another reason as well.

 

I do remember Amadeo Castelani of Raceco UK saying that early V11's had horrible connecting rods that were both heavy and stretch prone. Now I *think* that that was all sorted out but there is still the possibility of the rods being wonky. If the big ends are prone to ovalization then this too will torch the big ends quicker than you can say "That's a funny noise!" For that reason, regardless of the condition of the crankpin, (and I've salvaged many nitrided crankpins, including the one on the crank of the current roundfin racer by giving them the 'poor man's linish' with a yard long length of 1200 grain wet'n'dry!) I'd be taking the rods out and checking them for length, ovality, stretching or anything else untoward. Yes, I know it's more work but if you stick in new shells and pay for new, expensive, rod bolts it would be a pain if the whole sorry business occurs again within a similar period of time.

 

Really, the only truly *right* option is to get the donk out and strip it. Unless of course there is some simple explanation like a loose oil pick-up, loose thermostat/oil filter housing, loose feed pipe, loose filter or PR valve all of which can be inspected simply by removing the sump.

 

Without actually taking the thing to bits myself and being able to make a hands on diagnosis this is all really pissing in the wind but I think we can take it as a given that there *is* a problem with pick-up and oil surge in the V11's, especially when used hard, (A fact reinforced by the fact that the Breva/Griso oil pick-up and delivery system has been completely re-vamped and a completely new sump design installed, it's not just to make the filter easier to get at!) and this being the case I know if I owned one I'd definitely be fitting some sort of baffle/windage plate in it to try and combat the problem. Enzo has a modified one of mine in his V11 and someone has just posted a pic of theirs in another thread. If I could get a template of Enzo's or the other one I can get 'em knocked out pretty cheap in Queanbeyan just up the road from me but I don't often have access to a 'Broad Sump model to play with so it's unlikely I'll be able to make one soon otherwise.

 

Look, to be honest I don't know for sure, but that's my   worth and i hope it's helpful and makes sense.

 

Pete

92820[/snapback]

I agree and will go with you on this one Pete. I honestly was not aware that the journals on the big v-twin M.G. were short, and easy to clean out.

From Greg's info, the occurance of big end failure seems to be on the increase with the post 2001 models, not the pre 2001 models. Buddy Chris got a late '02 model from Moto International, and after minimal mileage the big end shells went bad. Chris is a person with the ultimate in mechanical sympathy, and a windage tray on any of his bikes would be a total waste of money. His bikes are universally mint, and given the respect of a member of the family. His bike is not a candidate for this happening. Yet it did.

So, a bad batch of big end shells seems the likely candidate for me right now.

Ciao, Steve G.

[Greg Field]

Of all the ones we've seen, the one on Chris's is the only one that looked as if swarf may have been the cause.

[pete roper]

Of all the ones we've seen, the one on Chris's is the only one that looked as if swarf may have been the cause.

92876[/snapback]

 

Well, there y'go. From the horses mouth as it were. If MI made that diagnosis I'm more than happy to go with it.

 

Pete

[quazi-moto]

I had the oil light flicker on once returning from the Catskills. I whacked it open on the thruway at one point and the light came on for maybe a second. I stopped at the nearest service area to check the oil level and it was down a whole quart. Ever since then I've been keeping a close eye on the oil level. Hopefully no damage was done.

[todd haven]

The 2 we have seen fail were both low-mile(~ 2K?)

2002.5/2003 V11 Nakeds.

Wicks' and Bushpilots' are both meticulously maintained bikes,

adult ridden, by experienced riders. Not babied, but not abused.

Neither had flickering oil lights.

Bushpilots' were not making noise yet, but were inspected and replaced

along with a case replacement. They would have been making noise soon.

 

We have seen none earlier, none later.

And many examples not near as well cared for.

 

I lean toward a bad batch as well. MI swarf case excepted.

[pete roper]

Further indication from a reliable source that it may simply be a bung batch of bearing shells, (Obviously purchased from the same wholesaler do supplies the crap valves and wonky return springs! ). I'd still be pulling out the rods and re-sizing 'em but it would seem the problem is of a fairly simple nature, if irritating and expensive to people who's bikes have gone out of warranty. Bummer.

 

Pete