Guest jasper Posted June 20, 2006 Posted June 20, 2006 Hi.. Had the scura on the bench from HTM (www.htmoto.de) this weekend at the international moto guzzi meeting in Boxmeer, Holland just for the fun of it. After 2 seconds Hartmut (german guzzi guru) diagnosed worn valveguides at the right cilinder! not so good news! the engine has done about 15000 km's (roughly 10.000 miles) According to Hartmut all v11 engines suffer from this and it's caused by the materials used for the valveguides in combination with the angle of the tappet or something.. Anybody heard about this before or has an opinion about this ? I don't think it is a problem yet as the bike doesn't use oil but it needs solving in the near future. So any ideas on improving this would be really appreciated Ciao jaP PS: still had a nice weekend, had a look at the new Norge but i was lucky lotts of nice bikes to!
Guest ratchethack Posted June 20, 2006 Posted June 20, 2006 Jasper, I've read enough about this on other forums to have a serious concern at triple your mileage. There seem to be two sources of premature wear in V-11 heads due to substandard materials: The guides and the valves. I've read where K-lining the guides and new valves can re-set the heads for 100K miles. This summer, I'm doing a heads-off valve guide inspection at 30K miles and I'll be prepared to do a thorough top-end rebuild if necessary. I'm not using ANY measurable oil at this point, so it's hard to imagine you'd have much of a problem yet at 1/3 the miles?
Guzzirider Posted June 20, 2006 Posted June 20, 2006 Hi.. Had the scura on the bench from HTM (www.htmoto.de) this weekend at the international moto guzzi meeting in Boxmeer, Holland just for the fun of it. After 2 seconds Hartmut (german guzzi guru) diagnosed worn valveguides at the right cilinder! not so good news! the engine has done about 15000 km's (roughly 10.000 miles) According to Hartmut all v11 engines suffer from this and it's caused by the materials used for the valveguides in combination with the angle of the tappet or something.. Anybody heard about this before or has an opinion about this ? I don't think it is a problem yet as the bike doesn't use oil but it needs solving in the near future. So any ideas on improving this would be really appreciated Ciao jaP PS: still had a nice weekend, had a look at the new Norge but i was lucky lotts of nice bikes to! 92739[/snapback] Boxmeer was brilliant! Shame I did not bump into you Jasper! Guy
Guest jasper Posted June 20, 2006 Posted June 20, 2006 I'm not using ANY measurable oil at this point, so it's hard to imagine you'd have much of a problem yet at 1/3 the miles? 92742[/snapback] maybe a different riding style good cause faster wear? or is that not possible? I don't know i my book i should be using heaps of oil when the valveguides are worn.. right? so another question: what can go wrong with slightly worn valveguides? When you say you are going to do a top end rebuild i assume you are going to use different components to the standard v11 ones since they don't really have a long lifespan! any ideas on which components to use? Ciao jap
Guest jasper Posted June 20, 2006 Posted June 20, 2006 Boxmeer was brilliant! Shame I did not bump into you Jasper! Guy 92744[/snapback] i was wearing my v11lemans.com t-shirt just in case! i only was there fridaynight so it was a bit short for me! maybe next time? Ciao jap
Guzzirider Posted June 20, 2006 Posted June 20, 2006 i was wearing my v11lemans.com t-shirt just in case! i only was there fridaynight so it was a bit short for me! maybe next time? Ciao jap 92748[/snapback] Yes I'll be back next year for sure.
dbdicker Posted June 20, 2006 Posted June 20, 2006 i had thought this was a problem in the California model 1100 VTwins. Those valve guides were swapped as a precaution before delivery, from information from a couple of california variant (Stone, EV) owners I know. Never heard of this problem as relates to spine frames. Boy, those guys in Europe ride their bikes HARD! Seems that motorcycles must be overbuilt to endure the 'at the redline' use they regularily take -- it's a wonder any bike can survive to 100K miles. Did you flog the crap outta this one for 10K? Wheelie through France? What's going on over there??
Guest ratchethack Posted June 20, 2006 Posted June 20, 2006 When you say you are going to do a top end rebuild i assume you are going to use different components to the standard v11 ones since they don't really have a long lifespan! any ideas on which components to use? Yep! I sure wouldn't use Guzzi valves. New valves with K-lined guides - and springs too if they're out o' spec. I've started a "fishin' expedition" of my own looking for suggestions on valves!
pete roper Posted June 20, 2006 Posted June 20, 2006 I've heard of, but never seen, severely worn guides on the V11's. Why it should happen i don't know. What I do know is that you can have horribly sloppy valves and guides and Guzzis won't tend to smoke. The best diagnosis technique I know is to have the engine stone cold, start it and run it for three or four minutes then kill it and let it sit until completely cold again. If the guides are suspect when you re-start it you'll then get huge clouds of smoke for a couple of minutes and then it'll clear and everything will appear *normal*. Years and yeard of dealing with the hateful big-valve motor taught me this . The V11's use a slightly more aggressive cam than the big-valvers but their valves are smaller so the rocking motion imparted by the rocker sliding across the top of the valve is inherently less than with the big valver but the accelerative forces and side thrust will be greater due to the more aggresive nature of the cam. From what I've read here and elsewhere it looks like Guzzi got a bung bunch of 'Free Grandfather Clock With Every Hundred' valves made and threw 'em willy-nilly into V11's. Certainly my understanding is that the problem rests with the valves rather than the guides, it's very difficult to f@ck-up a sintered bronze guide! Getting some decent valves made by someone like Manley shouldn't be too difficult and as long as the valve guides are still firm in the head I say you can't go past K-lining. Not only does it keep the new valve concentric with the seat meaning that less material has to be removed to cut the new valves in but the scrolled nature of the liner means that they actually hold what little lubrication they get better than the parent material and so they last longer. A further bonus is that when they do wear out you simply ream 'em out and replace 'em again. All in all a much better sollution than re-guiding. In case anybody want's to suggest that this might be an OK sollution for Lo-Po old sh!tters but not for a fine, race-tuned, (Snuffle, guffaw!) engine like the V11 I'd like to point out that both of the Moto Moda race bikes run K-lined guides and we're running considerably more aggressive cams than the V11 one and we've never had a failure. The K-lines in the 'Roundfin' bike have just been replaced after two and a half seasons which isn't a lot in miles but remember that this is a race bike that is caned to the max from cold virtually every time it's started! Incidentally I'd like to know how the diagnosis was made that the guides were shot? The only *real* way to be sure is to take the heads to bits. If it was merely down on compression it could be any number of things and if it was leaking down I'd suspect a charred valve over worn guides at any mileage under 25,000KM??? Pete
jrt Posted June 21, 2006 Posted June 21, 2006 Here we go- I knew I remembered an article on this from the past: Thread #1 Thread #2 So, what's a K-lined guide?
pete roper Posted June 21, 2006 Posted June 21, 2006 So, what's a K-lined guide? 92796[/snapback] An interupted srolled liner that fits inside the original guide and is then reamed back to standard size. Pete
Guest jasper Posted June 21, 2006 Posted June 21, 2006 Did you flog the crap outta this one for 10K? Wheelie through France? What's going on over there?? 92769[/snapback] hmmm i ride it as it was intended.. you don't want to go and break the shaftdrive now would ya? No serious.... it did an occasional redline but not to bad and only when hot! I've heard of, but never seen, severely worn guides on the V11's. Why it should happen i don't know. What I do know is that you can have horribly sloppy valves and guides and Guzzis won't tend to smoke. The best diagnosis technique I know is to have the engine stone cold, start it and run it for three or four minutes then kill it and let it sit until completely cold again. If the guides are suspect when you re-start it you'll then get huge clouds of smoke for a couple of minutes and then it'll clear and everything will appear *normal*. Years and yeard of dealing with the hateful big-valve motor taught me this . The V11's use a slightly more aggressive cam than the big-valvers but their valves are smaller so the rocking motion imparted by the rocker sliding across the top of the valve is inherently less than with the big valver but the accelerative forces and side thrust will be greater due to the more aggresive nature of the cam. From what I've read here and elsewhere it looks like Guzzi got a bung bunch of 'Free Grandfather Clock With Every Hundred' valves made and threw 'em willy-nilly into V11's. Certainly my understanding is that the problem rests with the valves rather than the guides, it's very difficult to f@ck-up a sintered bronze guide! Getting some decent valves made by someone like Manley shouldn't be too difficult and as long as the valve guides are still firm in the head I say you can't go past K-lining. Not only does it keep the new valve concentric with the seat meaning that less material has to be removed to cut the new valves in but the scrolled nature of the liner means that they actually hold what little lubrication they get better than the parent material and so they last longer. A further bonus is that when they do wear out you simply ream 'em out and replace 'em again. All in all a much better sollution than re-guiding. In case anybody want's to suggest that this might be an OK sollution for Lo-Po old sh!tters but not for a fine, race-tuned, (Snuffle, guffaw!) engine like the V11 I'd like to point out that both of the Moto Moda race bikes run K-lined guides and we're running considerably more aggressive cams than the V11 one and we've never had a failure. The K-lines in the 'Roundfin' bike have just been replaced after two and a half seasons which isn't a lot in miles but remember that this is a race bike that is caned to the max from cold virtually every time it's started! Incidentally I'd like to know how the diagnosis was made that the guides were shot? The only *real* way to be sure is to take the heads to bits. If it was merely down on compression it could be any number of things and if it was leaking down I'd suspect a charred valve over worn guides at any mileage under 25,000KM??? Pete 92787[/snapback] German Guzzi Guru concluded after hearing the enigine run for about 2 senconds that the valveguides on the right where toast..... no further checks!?!? he claims al the v11's have worn valveguides even at very low milage but i am getting a feeling a second opinion is necessary here! i do want to get it in perfect condition before shipping here of to her new homeland OZ Any opinions on different, maybe progressive, springs? I'll check the old threads now! Ciao jasper
Guest jasper Posted June 21, 2006 Posted June 21, 2006 http://www.cylinderheadshop.co.uk/K-line.html this is what i found on the k-line stuff! looks promising! ciao jap
TX REDNECK (R.I.P.) Posted June 21, 2006 Posted June 21, 2006 German Guzzi Guru concluded after hearing the enigine run for about 2 senconds that the valveguides on the right where toast..... no further checks!?!? That's amazing.
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