false neutral

[scre103]

took a ride yesterday and while shifting into 5th gear suddenly i was just revving, obviously in no mans land between 4yh and 5th gear. usually when this happens, and i'm out in the country i will just engage the clutch and coast to a stop, then shift down to first and take off. but what if i'm on a four lane and this happens? so i double clutched and waited till i thought everything had stopped spinning inside the gearbox---- and shifted into 5th and wham, the gears just jammed themslves into 5th. it sounde d ugly even with earplugs on.

 

in the past when this has happend i've tried shifting the other way-from lets say 4th to third and the same thing has happend, uglyness.

 

question: what do you do to get back into gear when you are in a false neutral without grinding up your gears short of having to come to a complete stop. also what kind of damage/abuse is happening to the gears and tranny when doing what i did?

 

i.ve read all the posts about slower shifting, shifting at higher rpms, more deliberate thuoghtful shifting, preloading the shifter, but false neutrals still happen!!!!

 

thanks scre

[frogonwheels]

I'm with you here. If I get too lazy with that left foot, I will end up in a false neutral. I always try to coast to a complete stop ( just like you ) and will shift back to first. If I try as I am still in motion, the upper or lower gear will not engage without a terrifying grinding sound. If my life was on the line, I would find a gear at any cost. Otherwise, I play it cool like I need to adjust my goggles and stop nicely on the side...so embarrassing !!!

If someone has a miracle solution, I'm all ears as well...

Terry

04' Ballabio

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

took a ride yesterday and while shifting into 5th gear suddenly i was just revving, obviously in no mans land between 4yh and 5th gear. usually when this happens, and i'm out in the country i will just engage the clutch and coast to a stop, then shift down to first and take off. but what if i'm on a four lane and this happens? so i double clutched and waited till i thought everything had stopped spinning inside the gearbox---- and shifted into 5th and wham, the gears just jammed themslves into 5th. it sounde d ugly even with earplugs on.

 

in the past when this has happend i've tried shifting the other way-from lets say 4th to third and the same thing has happend, uglyness.

 

question: what do you do to get back into gear when you are in a false neutral without grinding up your gears short of having to come to a complete stop. also what kind of damage/abuse is happening to the gears and tranny when doing what i did?

 

i.ve read all the posts about slower shifting, shifting at higher rpms, more deliberate thuoghtful shifting, preloading the shifter, but false neutrals still happen!!!!

 

thanks scre

94428[/snapback]

[Martin Barrett]

Big foot crunch for me . I'd never considered the stop and click down

[dlaing]

Most of my rider caused neutrals are caused by not releasing the foot from the shifter soon enough after the shift. Linkage adjustment may fix that.

But not shifting far enough nor with the right timing will also blow the shift.

If you do all your upshifts as if clutchless, but use a clutch anyway, I believe you are on the right track for flawless shifts.

Otherwise their is the adjuster screw under the acorn nut that holds the secret to harmonious shifting. If you blow both your upshifts and downshifts the adjuster won't help, but if you only blow upshifts or only blow downshifts, the adjuster is the ticket to Shangrilla.

Clues to adjusting it with the case closed are here

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...topic=6118&st=0

If the case is open, you should have no trouble adjusting it...if you can loosen the aduster.

this thread also may be useful:

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5866&hl=

[luhbo]

If you end up between gears this is no big problem. Just act as if you'd shift any older lorry or car with an unsynchronised gearbox. Release the clutch, give a short throttle impulse and let the right gear slip in. It sounds a bit complicated and for a newbie not familiar with such oldfashioned things trying this is complicated as well .

I'm afraid even military trucks have lost this feature in the meantime

 

Hubert

[Guest Nogbad]

All you need to do is match the engine more or less to the speed for the gear you are going for declutch and cram it in. The nearer the match the less the clang, but if taken by surprise by a falsie I just want to restore normal operation ASAP.

 

You are the first people I have ever heard of that coast to a stop before resetting the 'box. An occasional clanky missed change won't wreck it!

 

The 'box can get balky when hot, and when very hot, as BFG will attest, some V11 boxes can be downright hopeless. Treat the V11 gearbox with a firm and decisive foot, and if you do get a false neutral "treat it mean and keep it keen" as they say.

[beauchemin]

When you find yourself in a false neutral, the best thing to do is NOT touch the clutch - just keep the revs at the appropriate level to match the road speed for that gear and gently push the lever into the gear you were trying for. It works every time with NO crunch.

[Guest Nogbad]

When you find yourself in a false neutral, the best thing to do is NOT touch the clutch - just keep the revs at the appropriate level to match the road speed for that gear and gently push the lever into the gear you were trying for.  It works every time with NO crunch.

94474[/snapback]

 

Hmmmm... I must try this.

[dlaing]

The 'box can get balky when hot, and when very hot, as BFG will attest, some V11 boxes can be downright hopeless. Treat the V11 gearbox with a firm and decisive foot, and if you do get a false neutral "treat it mean and keep it keen" as they say.

94465[/snapback]

That may indicate your lube is under weight and you need some Redline Shockproof Heavy

[Guest Nogbad]

That may indicate your lube is under weight and you need some Redline Shockproof Heavy

94523[/snapback]

 

BFG has posted a recipe for making your own.

[slowkitty]

When you find yourself in a false neutral, the best thing to do is NOT touch the clutch - just keep the revs at the appropriate level to match the road speed for that gear and gently push the lever into the gear you were trying for. It works every time with NO crunch.

 

Will try the above, but (a dumb question) wouldn't harm the engine to change gear without clutch?

 

It's terrible, I'm hitting false neutrals quite often, usually on a downshift, resulting in a "ta ta ta ta ta ta ....". Drama increases exponentially if this happens in a turn. My reaction usually would be clutch in, stamp down hard to find a gear. Am I doing my engine in?

 

Cheers

 

Cat

[Guest ratchethack]

Will try the above, but (a dumb question) wouldn't harm the engine to change gear without clutch?

Cat, while underway, if you can match engine speed exactly to the rotation speed of the proper gearset, engaging that gearset will be like a hot knife thru butter -- with or without the clutch. However, if you miss matching the speed up correctly without using the clutch, and if you're far enough off, you risk accelerated wear on the corners of the engagement muffs and shift dogs with repetition of this behavior. Once the corners of these parts have deteriorated by rounding off from the continued effects of this abuse, the usual progression here is that shifts get progressively sloppier as the parts wear through their case hardening and now you have unhardened steel slamming against unhardened steel. From this point onward the muffs and dogs wear very quickly and soon get to the point where the trans begins to jump out of gear spontaneously, eventually refusing to stay in gear at all. At thi$ point it'$ pa$t time for a complete tran$mi$$ion rebuild.

 

I do an occasional clutchless shift when I'm sure I can get away with it on the big single trailie, but wouldn't do the above as a remedy to a missed shift on the Guzzi or any other bike, and have habitually downshifted to neutral before coming to a stop since day 1 on my first bike simply because this works and it doesn't very well otherwise. But o' course that's just me.

 

. . .I'm hitting false neutrals quite often, usually on a downshift, resulting in a "ta ta ta ta ta ta ....". Drama increases exponentially if this happens in a turn. My reaction usually would be clutch in, stamp down hard to find a gear. Am I doing my engine in?

Please DO NOT stomp down hard to find a lower gear! Being sympathetic to all Guzzi mechanicals, this is painful to me just to read it, it's at least potentially destructive, and it won't help!

 

You might benefit from adjustment of the angle of the eccentric pin that controls limit of movement of the shifter ratchet pawl. If you mark the adjustment nut's position carefully first, loosen the acorn locknut, and give the adjuster nut an ever so slight turn counter-clockwise (5 degrees or so), then lock it back down, you may notice an improvement.

 

Good luck. If you try this, please post back with results!

[slowkitty]

Will change gear oil first before embarking on dissection. Sigh ... character!!!!

 

Cheers

 

Cat

[pete roper]

Gakk! A gearbox question and I missed it!

 

I love gearboses, they're really clever but simple at the same time.

 

I have to go out and ferry me Mum in Law about right now but I'll try and remember to get back to this.

 

If I forget remind me, but Ratchet has made the obvious suggestion about the pawl adjuster. I reckon I can make a couple of useful observations though on top of this that should make your V11 box like a hot knife through butter ane are well within the remit of virtually anyone with a 5mm allen key and a couple of 13mm spanners.

 

As I said. If I forget, nag me!

 

Pete

[slowkitty]

If I forget remind me, but Ratchet has made the obvious suggestion about the pawl adjuster.

Pete

 

Hiya .. for a start, is the pawl adjuster anywhere in this diagram? Sorry if the answer is obvious, but only started to get into Guzzi ...

 

 

Cheers

 

Cat