Now it is broken clutch

[kecup]

Hello everyone - it seems that I only post when something goes wrong. Last time it was the oil light problem with my 2004 Le mans - thanks to your expert advices I filled the oil to the top (previously the oil level was in the middle of the range, who'd have thought.........) - had not seen the light on since.

 

Due to the above problem I mostly rode my other guzzi (2003 cali aluminium) in the past days and so I have a broken clutch now. The bike has 5000miles on clock and since yesterday the clutch isn't working - it slips so badly that one can not even take off. If pushed it will move very slowly regardless the angine rpms, gears etc. So I figure I got some 5-10% of clutch function left. The bike is single plate clutch model. Just now I am learning that lots of these had the same problem - bad engineering perhaps. Anyway I am some ten days short of warrantly and they give me a $3K estimate on the rebuild. I heard some rumours about recalls being issued on this but dunno for sure. I would appreciate any suggestions what to do - it could have affected some Le manses since they made some of them with the single plate clutch too. I do not know. Also any suggestions how to get this thing back on road for less than 3grands would be very welcome. Considering that $3K is some 50% of the bike's market value I might just sell it for parts - it's like-new condition after all:)

 

I only have experience with modern guzzis (99-present), and out of three examples I only got troubles: the Jackal was at some 4 warranty repairs(relay, fuses, ECU atc.) during the first 10Kmiles and The Cali Aluminium lasted only 5Kmiles. Luckily the Le mans runs great so far - just the picky oil light and trip meter knob that had fallen off.

 

I've always been impressed by MG and I tried to be a good guzzisti - but I just might give up, character is a great thing but I want something that runs too. Used to have Suzi 1200bandit - no character but the bike run for 40K miles before I sold it without a single problem.

 

 

 

Pavel

[guzzista]

Sorry to hear about your clutch. MY 2003 Cali EV had one clutch disc shear from metal stress at 18k miles, still not a lot and , still within the warranty period. Even with the efforts of Moto International, Moto Guzzi shined me on and I had to replace my own clutch ( done at home in 5 evenings after work...). The new high quality bonded ( and riveted ) type clutch discs made by Surflex are available from MG cycles and from MotoGuzzi Classics..I may be wrong but 2003 Calis are supposed to have twin disc type clutches...3k USD sure sounds like a bit much ...any way I hope you dont give up ...maybe its worth it to truck it another shop with(hopefully a much) better price... Cheers

[richard100t]

Havent I read somewhere in this forum that Guzzi has been replacing the single plate clutches in the Calis? Maybe that was only in Europe? I think if they arent going to stand by their products we should form some sort of a group & sign a petition stating that we may boycott their new products until they resolve the defects in the "old" products we have collectively purchased from them. IMO these bikes are pretty highly priced & the manufacturer should stand by the product & service any & all defects in workmanship caused by them. The single plate clutch is a problem they are well aware of & they should be a responsible company & replace their faulty equipment that they sold as being durable & reliable. Does anyone else feel this way about the way Guzzi is dealing with the clutch issue?

[guzzijack]

Havent I read somewhere in this forum that Guzzi has been replacing the single plate clutches in the Calis? Maybe that was only in Europe? I think if they arent going to stand by their products we should form some sort of a group & sign a petition stating that we may boycott their new products until they resolve the defects in the "old" products we have collectively purchased from them. IMO these bikes are pretty highly priced & the manufacturer should stand by the product & service any & all defects in workmanship caused by them. The single plate clutch is a problem they are well aware of & they should be a responsible company & replace their faulty equipment that they sold as being durable & reliable. Does anyone else feel this way about the way Guzzi is dealing with the clutch issue?

94888[/snapback]

 

Richard - and Pavel,

 

This message thread is also running over on the Guzzitech Forum and I am having a bit of a problem in understanding why the problem has not been referred back to MG/Aprilia/Piaggio in North America, either directly or via one of the dealer network. OK if the response from the one outlet it has been referred to was not positive, then go somewhere else - my understanding is that MG Classic who have been spoken to wouldn't warranty it but that is hardly surpising if they are not Official MG dealers

 

The single plate clutches that have presented problems have been replaced under warranty - not just in Europe but worldwide - so before starting any pressure group, petitions, shouting and hollering on the forums etc. maybe there should be some personal attempt by Pavel to actually contact someone at MG or the 'Official' dealer network who WOULD be in a position to carry out the work under warranty.

 

If the response is then negative by all means start complaining and seeking support.

 

Graham

[Greg Field]

An '03 would have come with a single-plate clutch.

 

Are you sure there is slack in the cable and that the clutch arm is not fouling the frame? Look at these first.

 

The single-plate clutches do fail, usually in a few thousand miles or not until many tens of thousands of miles.

 

If in warranty, we replace them with dual-plate clutches. Unfortunately, the parts supply for these is very spotty, and we have had to buy them from all over hte world in order to get enough to accomodate our customers.

 

If out of warranty, we (Moto International) offer a replacement plate that is far more durable than the original. I put one of these warranty-takeoff single-platers with the new plate in my ELdo. It is the best Guzzi clutch (smooth takeup, low lever effort) that I have ever felt. I have less than 10,000 miles on it, so far, though all the miles have been in-city commuting, so I cannot tell you how many miles it will last.

[richard100t]

I have to say from reading previous posts here from Scura owners that MG has quite clearly been notified. Both in the U.S. Australia & Europe the clutch problem has been reported with little or no response. It just seems to me that the company does not want to deal with any defective equipment they may have sold if its even one day outside of the warranty period. I dont think theres any doubt that the clutch problem is a manufacturing defect. Moto Guzzi should step up to the plate & recall all of those bikes with that clutch but thats just my opinion. I also do believe that the most effective way to get the companies attention is via a petition or a boycott if necessary.

[Greg Field]

Yes, they should stup up. Don't look for them to, though.

 

Clutch parts are listed as a wearing parts and thus not covered for the full warranty period, like brake rotors and pads, batteries, etc.

 

Given that, I'm surprised they are replacing the single-plate clutches on the Calis at all and expect them to slam shut the door on this at any time, similarly to the way they did on warped brake rotors fairly recently. This is doubly likely to happen in the case of clutches because they do not have the parts and appear to be having great difficutly obtaining enough. The easy route for them would be to say, no more.

[guzzijack]

Yes, they should stup up. Don't look for them to, though.

The easy route for them would be to say, no more.

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Yes, fair comment, but my point is that in this case it appears that MG in the States(via the official dealer network) haven't even been approached by Pavel. :!: So why come on with the big hard done by story quoting $3K for an after-warranty clutch repair when the facts haven't been presented to them or pursued?

 

If MG then decline stump upwith a warranty claim, well that's a different matter. During the problem period during the Aprilia takeover I had one or two issues with my Cali EV but once the claim had been entered by my OFFICIAL dealer it was eventually sorted with no quibbles - might have taken some time and a bit of pushing by me now and again, but they didn't query anything.

 

If they don't know about an issue then no-one can expect them to be clairvoyant and come and sort it out unbidden.

 

Graham

[richard100t]

Yes, they should stup up. Don't look for them to, though.

 

Clutch parts are listed as a wearing parts and thus not covered for the full warranty period, like brake rotors and pads, batteries, etc.

 

Given that, I'm surprised they are replacing the single-plate clutches on the Calis at all and expect them to slam shut the door on this at any time, similarly to the way they did on warped brake rotors fairly recently. This is doubly likely to happen in the case of clutches because they do not have the parts and appear to be having great difficutly obtaining enough. The easy route for them would be to say, no more.

94921[/snapback]

Yes I dont think they will do anything about the problem if they arent forced to. They probably cant afford the recall right now, & most of the clutches work just fine...until they dont that is One of those clutches is going to go boom & really hurt somebody one of these days.

[kecup]

Thanks a lot to all of you for responses!

 

Here are some explanations. The bike is some three weeks short of warranty. I have contacted MGNA firstplace through their web - no response, but that's no surprise. I have written to the same void few more times concerning various components failing on my Jackal and never got any feedback.

 

I did not know that MG Classics are not official dealer - how would I know unless they write it on their website. I contacted OC Motorsports and they say bring the bike in (an hour of driving), we diagnose it (it has broken clutch) and if it is under warranty (it is not) we submit a claim to MGNA. Alternatively we fix your clutch at your expense. Then perhaps I could truck the bike to Santa Barbara (two hours driving) to give it another try? Given my past experience with the jackal warranty claims I am not a great believer here. In the jackal times, the dealer was around the corner, now it is difficult to push someone when they are 100miles away from you.

 

A faint rumour says they were recalls on this but as you see from the postings here, bike has to have a warranty for this to be fixed@no charge. So I have an estimate now of about 800$ for changing the bad plate in the clutch not changing the bad clutch for good one - much more expensive. 800 assuming there is nothing more screwed in there. I might cure the problem only temporarily (opinions differ on this) but I guess it will give me anough time to get rid of the bike considering that there is the lifter screwed up waiting.

 

I agree with Richard that Guzzi should have more understanding of their customers considering the composition of its customer crowd.

 

I plan to assemble a portal where all the victims of Guzzi's recent design screwed ups (engine paint including) can simply post their experience. With the noble intention of helping to make the future Guzzis better. With the less noble intention of warning others what they might face.

 

Thanks again to all of you for your contributions to the matter.

 

P.

[pete roper]

Yes I dont think they will do anything about the problem if they arent forced to. They probably cant afford the recall right now, & most of the clutches work just fine...until they dont that is One of those clutches is going to go boom & really hurt somebody one of these days.

94928[/snapback]

 

Richard, the Cali clutch problems are completely different to the Scura ones.

 

Yes, I think there shoukld be a recall on the Scura clutches, but i don't think it will happen. The difference with teh Cali clutches is that there HAS been a recall. The CAli clutches, unlike the Scura clutches, don't grenade the flywheel, the problem is a fiction material one, the bronze stuff they used wears far too quickly, whether this was poor choice of material or simply a duff batchfrom their supplier who knows but wear out they do.

 

As Greg has said there seems to have been quite a few problems with supply of the replacement twin platers with some folks, (There was one bloke, up in Canada.) waiting months and months for parts. Now that is really pretty piss-poor but whether things have improved under the new US Guzzi distribution system seems to be a question on which the jury is still out! The subliminal messages, (And sonme not so subliminal ones ) from the likes of Todd and Greg are that the new management also would have severe dificulty finding their arses with both hands in a well lit room!

 

I think that Pavel is going off a bit early here though. So far it seems he hasn't contacted an official dealer? Bloody difficult to get the company to respond if there isn't a relationship between the shop he's gone to and the importer?

 

Oh, and Pavel, on the oil pressure warning light issue I suggest you read the thread just down the board here on the question of pressure drop under hard acceleration. I think it's causes have been fairly well isolated and explained and no, it's not simply a question of 'They all do that'. Hopefully someone will soon come up with a 'Sloppage Sheet' for the broad sump motors. Certainly as soon as I get one in I'll try and design something to address the problem, but broad sumpers are a bit few and far between around here

 

Pete

[kecup]

To Pete: I have contacted the official dealer (OC Motorsports) - I just do not see what I am going to gain by trucking the bike to Orange County. The bike is out of warranty and you can read somewhere in this discussion that another official dealer (MG International) rebuilds the 2003 Cali clutches at the owner's cost for out-of-warranty bikes.

 

To make it short - do you have any evidence of recall existing on this? Usually these are official and one can search out the pdf or something of the original announcement. I made an extensive internet search and found just the V11 transmission, throttle cables, wheels recalls etc.

 

If there is an evidence of recall on this - I will haul the bike to the OC and try my luck. If this is only gossip I do not waste time.

 

Regarding the oil light - I surely admire the knowledge that this (and others) guzzi forum holds - it is probably better than the company itself. I just do not understand the do-it-yourself part of the MG ownership. Same with the clutch, I might not cry here and quietly rebuild it at home. But why should I - the bike is virtually new.

 

p.

[pete roper]

Regarding the oil light - I surely admire the knowledge that this (and others) guzzi forum holds - it is probably better than the company itself.  I just do not understand the do-it-yourself part of the MG ownership.  Same with the clutch, I might not cry here and quietly rebuild it at home. But why should I - the bike is virtually new.

 

p.

94958[/snapback]

 

Pavel, while it may seem odd to you most long term Guzzi owners are used to the rather weird engineering and manufacturing practices of Moto Guzzi.

 

The thing is Guzzi are a very small company in world terms and for the last thirty years have effectively been 'On the ropes' financially, staggering from one form of administration to another or being bought out by ever more venal purchasers keen on a fast buck. Unfortunately this means that money for R&D has long been thin on the ground. The fact that the motor has remained virtually un-changed for forty years should tell you something! I'll believe that Moto Guzzi have built annew motor when the part number for the rear main bearing changes, it's still the same as the one on the original V7 in '67!

 

The end result of this is that stuff quite often gets released to the public with either insufficient development or problems due to the bean counters in accounts recievable deciding to go with a cheap-sh!t part like a bearing rather than one that costs a couple of dollars/euros more from a reputable supplier. The end result is that stuff ups like the crappy single plate clutches, (Both types!) and poorly dsigned sumps DO unforunately occur.

 

So what is the answer? Well, really there isn't one. If you want *appliance* like reliability then probably your only option is to go to one of the *appliance* manufacturers. I'm not saying that Guzzis aren't reliable mind, I know and have lots of customers who do no more than service 'em, stick petrol in 'em and cane the living daylights out of them and nothing ever goes wrong with 'em but with a small, poorly funded outfit like Guzzi you are bound to get more problems than you will with a huge combine producing more vehicles in a week than Guzzi do in a year! Having said that you can look at Honda's poor history with cam chain tensioner design and cam wear and Kawasaki's seemingly unsolvable problem with pourous head castings and see that *issues* are not a Guzzi only thing

 

As for your statement that your bike is 'Virtually new' well, I'm sorry, but it's not. It's a second hand 2003 model. While I don't doubt for a minute that you DO have a clutch problem as this issue was well documented the fact remains that the bike is four years old and you are it's, (At least.) second owner. It has only done very few miles for sure but when should a warranty expire? I had a customer recently who had picked up a virtually un-ridden, (less than 5,000KM) 1980 T3. Because his bike was a genuine low mileage one should Guzzi still be honouring a warranty on that too????

 

I do honestly sympathise with you. You shouldn't have got stuck like this, but think that people here, Greg especially, have tried to help you and steer you in the right direction as well as trying to make the reapair process as cheap and pain free as possible. Ranting and railing against the fates will serve no purpose so make your decision based o whether you like the bike, (In which case you carry out the repairs.) or you decide it isn't worth it and turn it over at a loss or try to wreck it out and recoup your loss. Either way you can chalk it up to a learning experience.

 

Me? I've been 'Doing it myself' with Guzzis for 25 years and well over 3/4 of a million Km, (At least!) and still believe them to be probably the BEST designed engine ever put in a motorcycle. They are also, overall, so simple that almost any *fault* whether factory induced or simply the result of age or abuse can usually be fixed with a minimum of fuss and bother and with comparatively little expense. YOMV

 

Pete

[Greg Field]

Pavel:

 

Clutches have not been recalled. If they had been, yours would be eligible for a free fix, even out of warranty.

 

Rather, those clutches that fail or are showing signs of failure are being replaced under warranty.

 

It is POSSIBLE, though not likely, that a service manager could convince Guzzi to warranty yours. I will ask our service manager what the likelihood is and see if he has any time to pursue it. This is our very busiest time of our very busiest year, though, but I will do what I can.

 

Before I do that, I need you to do a little inspection and report the results:

 

1) Can the cable be adjusted at either the handlebar or transmission end to get some freeplay in the cable? If so, do so and see if the clutch stops slipping.

 

2) From the right side of the bike look behind the transmission for a silver lever that pivots on the back cover of the transmission and to which the back end of the clutch cable is attached. Check to make sure it is not in contact with the frame or swingarm. If it is, you may be able to adjust it to get rid of the slipping. I'll tell how after you report back.

[Ballacraine]

An '03 would have come with a single-plate clutch.

 

94897[/snapback]

 

Oh Jeez!

 

Don't tell me I have been lumbered with another chuffing single plate clutch mess!!

 

04 Registered Cali Metal...

Odd though that it has the 2001 80th anniversary graphic on the tank?

 

Afraid to ask, but anybody know if this will be a single plate?

 

Nige.