dlaing Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 I can't believe my engine has not yet blown up I guess I better increase the level immediately. Thanks Pete and Greg. I wish you had told us this years ago, but I guess I can't complain as your advice is free, like beer. EDIT 8/26/07 Last October Ratchet posted accurate measurements The high level mark = 21 mm below the block (18 mm below the Roper plate). The low level mark = 41 mm below the block (38 mm below the Roper plate). NOTE: the Roper Plate + 2 new, compressed gaskets = ~3 mm. The thickness of the sump spacer, Roper Plate, and 2 gaskets = 30 mm. This translates into my suspected high mark being 6mm lower than actual and the low mark 14mm below the pan gasket. IMHO a sloppage sheet at the pan gasket might work very well. Of course it will do nothing for windage unless oil level drops below 7/10 full, measured immediately after running, but it might stabilize very well at that point, and the sloppage protection would be in place. Of course ideally the sheet should be above the high mark. http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/1630/dipstickmodqq6.jpg If you use Greg's not screwed in method the difference of course is much greater and the Roper plate at the top of the sump will work very well. Look, firstly I'm not going to get ticked off with people if they disagree with me, that's fine. I will get ticked off if people start being abusive. How was I abusive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete roper Posted July 20, 2006 Author Share Posted July 20, 2006 I can't believe my engine has not yet blown up How was I abusive? Dave, your engine hasn't blown up because it's as tough as buggery And I was NOT suggesting that anyone on this forum had been abusive, in fact it's a model of civility and decorum. Methinks the paranoia is kicking in! At the end of the day the *correct* level for oil is the point where the motor no longer tries to pump it out of the breather, on a well maintained motor in serviceable condition this should be the governing factor as long as the crankcase/sump volume is adequate to allow enough oil to be inside the engine! The Guzzi block is still, essentially the same as the one on the V7, 700cc donk of 1967, the increases in swept volume meant that the crankcase/sump volume had to be increased to cope with a number of factors, this as been done over the years in several ways, the 'road sump' just isn't a particularly successfull itteration of the process, that's all. It probably shows a more piecemeal attempt at design rather than a hollistic approach, that's all. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike wilson Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 ..................have nubile young porn starlets massage me with cocoa butter on the proceeds. ........... Massage you on the _where_???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete roper Posted July 20, 2006 Author Share Posted July 20, 2006 Massage you on the _where_???? If you don't understand you're obviously far too young Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike wilson Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 If you don't understand you're obviously far too young Pete Always willing to learn, though.... 8-))) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldini Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 ....there is a problem...oil starvation under conditions of hard acceleration and braking... Think I first heard about this problem re Centauros on COG forum years back. They rec'd keeping oil topped up to max or just above. Seems most people who've had light come on also had oil levels below max. I keep up to max or higher & haven't seen light & have accelerated hard, plenty. Just cos you don't see the fish doesn't mean it's not there. I'll have a plate please Mr Roper. Can you do em in stainless? Thank you for your efforts. How is the Griso/Breva sump different? KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete roper Posted July 20, 2006 Author Share Posted July 20, 2006 How is the Griso/Breva sump different? KB Externally, apart from the filter being in a *cavity* and therefore actually easily changed it is deeper and narrower than the 'Broad Sump' design. If you look at some of the publicity guff I think they have a computer generated image of it's internals in there somewhere but needless to say all it shows is a box with a series of silly looking multi-coloured tubes in it, while you probably could work out what is going where by studying it at length most of us have more interesting things to do like watching the all North Korean tiddly-winks championships on pay TV Next oil change I'll be pulling the sump off my 'G' for a looksee, at that point I'll take a few happy-snaps and try to re-learn how to post them up, much easier than trying to understand some Geek's computer mock-up! Sorry Keith, I can't tell you anything more than that yet, but I've mono'd the poor thing a few times now, (by mistake I might add!) and no sign of an oil light coming on yet, although the oil light system is a bit different on the new ones, it comes on when you turn on the ignition, the instument pod goes through it's silly hoop-la then all the lights, apart from the sidetand warning and neutral, go out Buggered if I know, but it hasn't started squeaking yet so it must have some oil in it somewhere Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ratchethack Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 I can't believe my engine has not yet blown up Dave. You've obviously got lots of time to take so many pictures of your dipstick. If you post any more, people will start bidding on it. They don't show anything of any value whatsoever WRT oil level. With all due respect, what you "suspect" here but haven't shown isn't very interesting. If you don't trust the work of the Pro's who've done this countless times before and you really want to duplicate the efforts that Greg, Pete, and God-only-knows how many others who've done this for decades, why don't you do what they've done long ago and take off the sump and the spacer. Put a straightedge across the block and get the measurement that Greg posted way back in posts #50 and #76. This is the only way y'er going to have any indication at all about what you've got y'erself so wrapped around the driveshaft about. Then you can take all the photos you want from the inside with the dipstick screwed down in place and post them here with circles and arrows and explanations about how wrong everyone has always been. [sigh] Where's Arlo and the "Group W" bench?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twhitaker Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 When I compared the bottom of the sumps on my bikes and found the screen to be forward of the one on my California it became apparent that sealing the top of the screen would do little to improve the situation. I do, after all, enjoy accelerating my bike briskly! I believe I will join the group that wants a windage tray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrt Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 All right, everyone take a deep breath and relax. Please keep bickering in the 'global warming thread'. Everyone's just trying to learn and figure out what's going on here. Here's a suggestion- The top of the oil level can be calculated pretty easily. Measure the angle of the dangle of the dipstick, and how far up the oil level is on it. If the bike is level, you can assume a right triangle and use simple trigonometry to calculate how far down the block the oil level is. Does anyone know the dipstick angle? I can estimate it this weekend.... I would not be at all surprised if there is some variation in dipsticks (or blocks for that matter). Certainly, it has happened before- case in point is my wife's Breva. The very earliest US Breva 750's came from the factory with the high and low marks off by about 1/4" inch or so. Later Breva's came over with the dipsticks marks obviously ground off(crudely at that!) and new marks put on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaing Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 They don't show anything of any value whatsoever WRT oil level. With all due respect, what you "suspect" here but haven't shown isn't very interesting. [sigh] "Oh for f@cks sakes!" What bull. You don't give me due respect. You have treated me like an ass ever since the global warming thread. Here is how I see the evidence. 1- I never see the oil light coming on durring accelleration (and I am one of those morons who spends too much time looking at the tach while accellerating) 2- I suspect, (as evidenced by the photos) my oil level is at about the top of the pan, as recommended by the manual. Are we arguing this point??? The photos seem to confirm this. Is anyone going to confirm this by dropping the pan. Probably not. Pete seems to be happy with the fill it with yak fat till it blows oil....which brings me to the next point 3-Mine blows Yak fat. The left side of the inside of my airbox is coated with oil, and the bottom of the airbox collects oil. I empty it once per year at filter service time. Does this mean my oil level is too high? 4- So assuming my oil level is too high, and the most obvious interpretation of the photos are correct, than a windage plate would do just about nothing if it was placed at the bottom of the crank. So, you mean to tell me that you have been doing the dipstick by the manual for nearly 40,000 miles, and now you are going to both increase your oil level about one liter and add a windage tray? I recollect you have in the past bragged that your bike burns no noticeable amount of oil, so that might put you into the category of people who might be able to increase the oil level. It just does not make sense to do both without more evidence. If you just add more oil, that will give you a greater safety margin. If you just add a windage plate, it could work wonders if sandwiched just over the pan, but it won't do much of anything up by the crankcase unless the oil level is raised, or a crank scraper is added. Until proven otherwise, count me out. (but thanks for offering) All right, everyone take a deep breath and relax. ooops, sorry, too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ratchethack Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Take it easy, Dave. Let's try to be rational, shall we? I don't recall "bragging" about not using oil. It's simply a fact. I know how to break in motors and I know how not to do it from long experience. I'm sorry if this is somehow offensive to you?? From memory, I think you indicated you hadn't broken yours in properly. The primary symptom of not breaking-in properly is rings that haven't seated and which, having missed the window of opportunity, can never seat properly. This causes poor compression, burning oil, and excessive blow-by. The primary symptom of excessive blow-by is oil dumping out through the breather system into the airbox. A secondary symptom of rings not seating would be oil getting past the oil control ring, creating a tell-tale trail of blue smoke following behind you . . . . I'm afraid if you want to stop using oil by burning it and pumping it into the airbox that y'er best option is honing the cylinders and a ring job. Lowering the oil level in the sump to any level will not appreciably affect the oil pumped into y'er airbox as long as the crankcase is continuously pressurized via blow-by. Your oil usage problem does not negate the expertise and hard-won experience of the Pro's here. I sincerely can't comprehend why y'er having a conniption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badmotogoozer Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 What??? The hypoteneuse is known. Length from bottom of dipstick cap to full mark. Angle is known (or at least fairly accurately estimated). All else can be calculated if a right triangle is assumed. Of course this will not give an exact 4 decimal place, hard as stone value, but it WILL define for Dave wether the line sits at the lower or upper joint. Quit picking on the poor guy!! Better take grade ten math again Ratch! Rj edit - I see you deleted that post while I was responding. Still, no need to jump all over the guy for being prudent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ratchethack Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Ryan! I thought you avoided my posts like the plague! Yeah, I re-thought my post and deleted it. Then I went into the shop and behold: Does anyone know the dipstick angle? I can estimate it this weekend.... Jason, I just happen to have quick access to my Guzzi already sitting on its shop stand. My measure against the head end of the dipstick says the dipstick itself is an exact 45 degrees from vertical or horizontal - take y'er pick. . . . Now all you need to do is calculate the vertical leg. Then the task is to get a vertical measure straight down from the center of the dipstick hole - around or behind the exhaust pipe. OR, you could go with What Greg, Pete, and so many others have directly measured so many times since so long ago. . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ratchethack Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Gents! I had all that momentum going, so I figured why not just follow it through?? Using my 10th grade Math, (thanks Ryan) I come up with the following: The high mark on the dipstick is 21 mm below the upper joint - that is, the joint between block and spacer, and 9 mm above the lower joint - that is, the joint between the spacer and the sump. Ryan - be sure & check this out to make sure I haven't made any mistakes. . . . . Now let the howling begin. . . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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