Sloppage sheet prototype?

[Greg Field]

I have a 1997 Sport 1100i engine with the sump completely taken off of it. The sump was taken off several years ago so I could take one of Pete's plates for the regular Guzzi engine and modify it to fit in Enzo's V11 Sport engine. During that effort, I screwed in its dipstick, laid a ruler across the bottom surface of the block, and looked at how the bottom surface and full mark on the dipstick compared. The full mark about 1/4 inch below the bottom of the engine block. A plate should work very well at limiting oil migration away from the pickup.

 

Dr. John Wittner told me that the sump was broadened to make it have the required volume while reducing the depth because fast riders were dragging the old sump on the test machines. The pickup point was moved to allow the hatch that allows changine the filter without removing the sump.

 

And how do I know the manual is wrong? Well, with the oil halfway between full and add, checked by my method, which means it would be very near the full mark checked by their method, I was able to starve the pump of oil under quick acceleration. That is proof that the Guzzi recommended oil level is too low for safe operation of the engine. Given the choice between believing the manual or what my oil-pressure gauge tells me, I'll believe the latter.

[emason]

Add one more to the run for me Pete.

Thanks.

[txrider]

Greg. Pete and co., thanks for the response and explaining oil levels and a different approach in dipstick checking. Gives me something to think about when I do my oil change tomorrow.

Makes one think that between oil starvation under hard acceleration on the one hand and oil pushed out of the sump and into the breather system on the other we don't have much room for variance in oil levels.

[Guest Nogbad]

Given that I didn't provoke a flicker the other day, (but have once in the past) I am not going to fit a plate, but I am going to run the level higher as recommended by Greg.

 

Later today I will check the existing level by the Greg method to see what the working level was at the time of the acceleration test.

[dlaing]

 

EDIT: I just took out the dipstick and went for another "eyeball" depth guage measurement. It's hard to get this accurate, but now it looks like the midpoint on the dipstick is about 1" below the UPPER joint after all, which fits in with what Greg said back on post #50. I think I must've looking below the upper joint the first time 'round.

 

 

I estimate the high mid and low on the dipstick to all be below the LOWER joint

camera angles can deceive...

Someone previously posted a picture with the pan removed to show the position of the dipstick and I recall it was below the top of the pan??????

[pete roper]

Oh for f@cks sakes!

 

Look, do you honestly think I haven't done this before? With any engine with a sump extension, or a 'Broad sump' if you stick three litres in it it will come to very close to the bottom of the BLOCK. Not the spacer that the thermostat, filter mount and all the rest of the munt hangs off.

 

The issue isn't *how much* oil, there is no point in faffing about worrying if you have the *exact* quantity specified by Guzzi, me or Uncle Tom Cobbley! The issue is that under hard acceleration it will slop away from the pick-up, exposing it and causing BIG problems. Over-filling may help prevent the exposure of the pick up but it also means that the oil level will be in closer proximity to the crank, this is a bad thing because the cyclonic forces created within the gas inside the case will try and drag oil from the sump and it will follow the crank webs around. If you look in there with a strobe you'll see that the crank looks like a bloody great dough-hook in a bakery with streamers of oil flying off in all directions, another advantage of a sloppage plate is that it will discourage oil from being picked up and will help diminish oil aeration.

 

I also think that there might be some people here who aren't fully conversant with how the oil delivery system in a conventional engine like ours works? Does anybody want an explanation of that?

 

Pete

[grossohc]

 

 

I also think that there might be some people here who aren't fully conversant with how the oil delivery system in a conventional engine like ours works? Does anybody want an explanation of that?

 

Pete

Yes please

[pete roper]

No worries, it's very simple, but it will have to wait until tomorrow morning as I have developed some disgusting disease bought home by the last fruit of my loins! Horrid little sh!t! I'm running a fever and am liable to become hysterical if I try to do it now!

 

Pete

[g.forrest]

horrid things those bacteria farms the offspring visit. you'll never be rid of it till they've flown the nest.

No worries, it's very simple, but it will have to wait until tomorrow morning as I have developed some disgusting disease bought home by the last fruit of my loins! Horrid little sh!t! I'm running a fever and am liable to become hysterical if I try to do it now!

 

Pete

[dlaing]

Oh for f@cks sakes!

 

Look, do you honestly think I haven't done this before? With any engine with a sump extension, or a 'Broad sump' if you stick three litres in it it will come to very close to the bottom of the BLOCK. Not the spacer that the thermostat, filter mount and all the rest of the munt hangs off.

 

I guess Luigi gave me too big of a dipstick...I wish God had done the same when I was born(for sake of f@cks)But then again I would need to find a sump big enough for it

 

or maybe my camera parallax is just f@cking with my head, and the dipstick is the right size and it measures the yak fat up near the bottom of the block

[Guest ratchethack]

I estimate the high mid and low on the dipstick to all be below the LOWER joint

Dave, while I applaud your efforts in gaining your own hands-on understanding here, without having the sump off, it's very difficult to get accurate measurements. Y'er way off.

 

Greg had already covered this about as thoroughly as can be done in posts #50 and #76.

 

F'er God's sake don't get Pete torked off! There's a whole gaggle of Guzzisti depending on the man!

 

Best let him recover nicely from the creepin' crud so's he can get on with it!!

 

I think you need some riding time, Dave.

 

Stop fiddlin' with y'er dipstick and get y'er Guzzi back on the road!

[dlaing]

Thats it, blame me when you are too inept.

Whatever happened to your motto, what was it? Trust but Verify?????

Whatever happened to the enquiring mind???????

Am I the only one that remembers a photo of the dipstick dangling below the plane of the sumps lower face????

Maybe the photo had both the pan and sump off???????

In anycase here is another photo to keep the sheople from being flocked over the edge of blind guzzichondria:

[Guest rrbasso]

I would Love one please let me know the $

[pete roper]

Look, firstly I'm not going to get ticked off with people if they disagree with me, that's fine. I will get ticked off if people start being abusive.

 

If people want to think this is Guzzichondria that's fine. There may well be some machines that for WHATEVER reason don't suffer the problem. The fact remains that I am ABSOLUTELY, 100% Cast Iron CERTAIN that there is a problem, I'm as CERTAIN as I can be without actually mounting some sort of fibre-optic camera in the sump and filming it that I know the cause of the problem and I'm pretty sure that fitting some sort of sloppage sheet to delay the rearward surge of the oil under hard acceleration will be sufficient to prevent any pick-up exposure.

 

Interestingly Mike Harper of Harper's Moto Guzzi is apparently being given a very hard time by Aprilia's lawyers about information he published on the net about the pick-up exposure problem! As he pointed out if they take it to court it will be very interesting when he pops out the factory blurb for the new Breva and Griso which states something along the lines of "Among many other improvements is a complete re-design of the sump to help overcome problems of oil starvation under conditions of hard acceleration and braking." Sorry, but if it looks like a big, rotting fish and it smells like a big, rotting fish then I'd say there is a very, very good chance that it's a great, big, smelly, rotting fish!

 

And believe me, when I get these plates made I will NOT be retiring to the Whitsundays to lie on beaches and have nubile young porn starlets massage me with cocoa butter on the proceeds. Sorry, but that's NOT what it's about and has anybody seen me, Greg or anyone else who as offered their worth tried to coerce anyone into buying a plate?

 

Pete

[Wick]

O.K., I still need 3 for my bunch of V11's. I'll even go 2 more to gift to some friends around here that need them as well. Just, let's get on with it.

 

Thanks,

 

Wick