twhitaker Posted July 18, 2006 Posted July 18, 2006 just wondering... so does any of them have one of those badass 33cal?.... I heard these gals were working at that ranch in Texas where Cheney peppered his buddy.
badmotogoozer Posted July 18, 2006 Posted July 18, 2006 mostly shotguns in that crowd. The scoped bolt rifle at the far right looks to be a Brownong A-bolt or such which could be in some .30 caliber or other high power rifle cartridge. The second chick from the right appears to be the retriever - not armed yet dangerous. I think it is a Winchester Model 70. I have the same one. Could be a number of large calibers... I would definitely trade in my black retriever for that one. Bet she'd look good with my bird in her mouth. Rj
helicopterjim R.I.P. Posted July 18, 2006 Posted July 18, 2006 I think it is a Winchester Model 70. I have the same one. Could be a number of large calibers... I would definitely trade in my black retriever for that one. Bet she'd look good with my bird in her mouth. Rj .338 Winchester mag maybe? The Canadian military is getting a variant of that round in some new rifles to replace the .308 standard sniper rifles. They do not have much greater range but more energy all the way out. The .303 that I have works well to 3-400 metres with myself shooting. I believe a good shooter would be accurate to at least 500 metres.
docc Posted July 18, 2006 Posted July 18, 2006 Win Mod 70 occurred to me. Also Remington Mod 700. I've never been much of a bolt guy preferring the gas rifles. I thought that Win mag round was .358?
badmotogoozer Posted July 18, 2006 Posted July 18, 2006 The .303 that I have works well to 3-400 metres with myself shooting. I believe a good shooter would be accurate to at least 500 metres. Yup. My best shot was through the heart of a walking moose at 700yds from a tree stand. I learned to shoot early on the farm and was a member of the Manitoba provincial cadet range team for a few years in my teens. I'm getting all nostalgic and teary eyed now - must remember to bring that gun back from my parents' house in a few weeks... Rj
Skeeve Posted July 18, 2006 Posted July 18, 2006 Skeeve - I respectfully, though vehemently, disagree. If you want a lightweight hunting rifle, then go out and buy a lightweight hunting rifle!! Lots of folks make them; take your pick. But please don't destroy a collectable out of sheer ignorance and/or apathy!!! Those old 'outdated' battle rifles aren't made anymore and never will be again. And since they are battle rifles, most of which having been used as intended, of those manufactured only a relative handful remain. They're rare and becoming more so with each passing year. Those that have survived have paid their dues so to speak and carry the scars to prove it - much like the men who carried them. Buying one of those old 'outdated' battle rifles and Bubba'ing it up is equally tragic as a soldier surviving mutiple tours of combat duty only to return home and get run over by a bus... They should be left for those who appreciate them. Yes, believe it or not, there are collectors who appreciate the history and beauty of those battered old 'outdated' battle rifles. If you come across a killer deal on one, fine, but do the proper thing and turn it over to someone who will preserve it. I'm sure you can find someone to take it off your hands for the price you paid - perhaps more if you tell them your intentions. By the way - they're not nearly as 'outdated' as you may believe... O.K., in order: "Collectible" - the Big 5 specials like a MN for $80 (in today's deflated greenbacks), or $120 for an SMLE or lately, a K31 Swiss @ $130, are not "collectible." They were made in the millions and if all the parts are numbered the same and not too beat up, then I wholeheartedly concur. But the vast majority of the drug-thru-the-mud, used-to-stretch-barb-wire, worn-at-the-muzzle-by-poorly-trained-conscripts are FAR from collectible! "By a lightweight hunting rifle" - Sure! You gonna sell'em to me in the same quality for what I can pay for one of the surplus beaters, plus $50 for a stock, & some of my unpaid time cutting back the barrel & recrowning? No? Can stay in business you say? I thought so... "Not made anymore & never will be again." - Exactly You cannot come close to the production quality of those old surplused veterans for less than 5x the price. That's what makes them such great raw material for conversion to something with greater utility. You'll note that I already answered the "relative handful" comment earlier in the "collectible" section. "Bubba'ing it up" - Sticks & stones. If I enjoy the process of garage gunsmithing the rifle to better suit my needs, you can call me "Bubba" all you want. It won't make me your big brother (the etymology of the term "bubba," in case you were unaware; "brat" has different but similar roots), altho' you're certainly stepping on my toes by behaving like Big Brother by telling me what or what not to do w/ my own property! Let's not be coy: your mentality is the same as telling me "don't you dare put a PCIII on your Scura to try and get more performance out of it!" Bite me! "Leave it someone who appreciates it" - Oh, I will. I appreciate the heck of them! As Hatcher said: "the only interesting rifle is an accurate one." One of the neat things about shooting these old war dogs is that they respond very well to relieving or removing handguards & excess stock bearing on the barrel, cutting back the 26" barrels [on some of the turn of the century guns] to something shorter & stiffer, throwing on a scope because the issue sights were unuseable at best, etc. Heck yeah, I appreciate currying a cur that will barely group 4" at 100yds, holding at the base of the target to get on paper to something that will shoot 2moa or less w/ issue surplus ammo, holding on target! "Outdated" - As battle rifles, they're outdated. They have generally poor sights, set to 400yd zeros, low-capacity magazines, manual actions & heavy-recoiling full-power cartridges. That suits me just fine for the kind of shooting I like to do! I'm not going to convince you, any more than you're going to convince me. Different strokes for different folks. I'll modify my firearms to better suit my needs just as I modify my motorcycles, cars, or any other tool I possess. It's mine, not yours. Got it? You don't have to agree with my choices, just ignore them when they don't affect you. Ride on!
docc Posted July 18, 2006 Posted July 18, 2006 Now, Skeeve, I'm pretty sure most of the riders on this board have kept their V11 rides box-stock. They're collectible , don't ya know?
Guest Aughtsix Posted July 19, 2006 Posted July 19, 2006 .338 Winchester mag maybe? The Canadian military is getting a variant of that round in some new rifles to replace the .308 standard sniper rifles. They do not have much greater range but more energy all the way out. The .303 that I have works well to 3-400 metres with myself shooting. I believe a good shooter would be accurate to at least 500 metres. Jim - I think you may be talking about the .338 Lapua Mag. It towers over a .338 WM...
Guest Aughtsix Posted July 19, 2006 Posted July 19, 2006 O.K., in order: "Collectible" - the Big 5 specials like a MN for $80 (in today's deflated greenbacks), or $120 for an SMLE or lately, a K31 Swiss @ $130, are not "collectible." They were made in the millions and if all the parts are numbered the same and not too beat up, then I wholeheartedly concur. But the vast majority of the drug-thru-the-mud, used-to-stretch-barb-wire, worn-at-the-muzzle-by-poorly-trained-conscripts are FAR from collectible! A Red Herring. Yes the Big 5 stuff as a whole I would agree is not terribly collectible, but some of it is. Some pearls have been found in those waters. But Big 5 doesn't represent the entirety of surplus firearms. How about the bigger picture? There are highly collectible, correct, numbers matching pieces out there in gun shops and private hands - some overseas, some in your home town. These ARE collectible and these ARE collected. But even the parts guns can be used for - get ready for it - parts. And yes, they were made by the millions, but millions don't remain. Take a look on any of the auction sites and tell me that supply and demand isn't ruling the day. Collectors are paying premium prices - prices unheard of not long ago - for military surplus rifles. I never though I'd see the day when a Smelly would fetch $500, or a Finn Mosin would sell for $500, or a Garand would be snapped up for $1500, or an O3A3 would bring $800. I remember when Krags sat in barrels in hardware stores for, I think, $8. Now try to find an excellent one that hasn't been Bubba'ed for 100 times that. "By a lightweight hunting rifle" - Sure! You gonna sell'em to me in the same quality for what I can pay for one of the surplus beaters, plus $50 for a stock, & some of my unpaid time cutting back the barrel & recrowning? No? Can stay in business you say? I thought so... What?? "In the same quality for what I can pay for one of the surplus beaters" ?? Didn't you write this?: Originally posted by Skeeve But the vast majority of the drug-thru-the-mud, used-to-stretch-barb-wire, worn-at-the-muzzle-by-poorly-trained-conscripts... Sounds like they're ready for the recycling bin - Now suddenly they're 'quality'? ... If they're quality - if they're good enough to Bubba, leave them alone or sell them for parts to someone who appreciates them for what they are. As an alternative, would you agree that most folks don't shoot but a box or two a year? Keep an eye on your local paper or Nickel Want Ads and you'll see commercial rifles for sale year round - some for dirt cheap. These rifles probably haven't seen 500 rounds -- they're in BETTER shape than "one of the surplus beaters" that haven't been shot out and abused by poorly trained conscripts. You can't have it both ways. If these surplus rifles are shot-out, junk beaters, they're no good for resale so why even bother to "Bubba" them. But if they're still serviceable they're not shot-out, junk beaters. "Not made anymore & never will be again." - Exactly You cannot come close to the production quality of those old surplused veterans for less than 5x the price. That's what makes them such great raw material for conversion to something with greater utility. An apparent contradiction... Again, if they're beaters, they're beaters. If they're serviceable, they're serviceable. And Let's take a walk back to Big 5, shall we? Preach to me about the production quality of the Russian Mosins. Yet many are collectable for their rarity... "Bubba'ing it up" - Sticks & stones. If I enjoy the process of garage gunsmithing the rifle to better suit my needs, you can call me "Bubba" all you want. It won't make me your big brother (the etymology of the term "bubba," in case you were unaware; "brat" has different but similar roots), altho' you're certainly stepping on my toes by behaving like Big Brother by telling me what or what not to do w/ my own property! Let's not be coy: your mentality is the same as telling me "don't you dare put a PCIII on your Scura to try and get more performance out of it!" Certainly you're free to Bubba to your heart's content - nothing I can do about it. Actually, in a sick and twisted way, you're helping me by reducing the available pool and driving prices up. But you've made a failing analogy unless you were to butcher your Scura to an unrecoverable extent which, incidently, you're also perfectly free to do. But if you do butcher your Scura, that's one less Scura available for someone who might appreciate the Scura - in its stock form - to buy. And if you want to put a PCIII on your Enfield, feel froggy... "Leave it someone who appreciates it" - Oh, I will. I appreciate the heck of them! As Hatcher said: "the only interesting rifle is an accurate one." One of the neat things about shooting these old war dogs is that they respond very well to relieving or removing handguards & excess stock bearing on the barrel, cutting back the 26" barrels [on some of the turn of the century guns] to something shorter & stiffer, throwing on a scope because the issue sights were unuseable at best, etc. Heck yeah, I appreciate currying a cur that will barely group 4" at 100yds, holding at the base of the target to get on paper to something that will shoot 2moa or less w/ issue surplus ammo, holding on target! Apparently you and I have a different definition of 'appreciate' when it comes to surplus rifles. You apparently 'appreciate' an accurate rifle as do I - we've found a little bit of commonality. But I respect the history represented in an old military arm. That is what I mean when I use the word 'appreciate'. I respect the history represented in an old military arm too much to butcher it. By the way - there are many old, shot-out, drug-through-the-mud-battered-etc-etc-etc surplus rifles that will hold 2 moa well past 100m. Anyway, there are many options available to you in the arena of accurate rifles - options that don't have to include butchering a rifle. But again, butcher to your heart's content. It's your right. "Outdated" - As battle rifles, they're outdated. They have generally poor sights, set to 400yd zeros, low-capacity magazines, manual actions & heavy-recoiling full-power cartridges. That suits me just fine for the kind of shooting I like to do! This is the paragraph with which I most agree except that many do not have 'poor sights'. We've found a bit more commonality. I'm not going to convince you, any more than you're going to convince me. Apparently... Different strokes for different folks. I'll modify my firearms to better suit my needs just as I modify my motorcycles, cars, or any other tool I possess. It's mine, not yours. Got it? You don't have to agree with my choices, just ignore them when they don't affect you. But they do affect me. They affect the whole body of folks who 'appreciate' these old rifles.
slug Posted July 19, 2006 Posted July 19, 2006 I love British Engineering, Q: You know why the British don't make computers? A: Because they haven't found a way to make 'em leak oil!
g.forrest Posted July 19, 2006 Posted July 19, 2006 and they drink warm because their first fridg's were made by lucas. Q: You know why the British don't make computers? A: Because they haven't found a way to make 'em leak oil!
grossohc Posted July 19, 2006 Posted July 19, 2006 Q: You know why the British don't make computers? A: Because they haven't found a way to make 'em leak oil! and they drink warm because their first fridg's were made by lucas. My My the colony,s are restless.
mike wilson Posted July 19, 2006 Posted July 19, 2006 I built a spud gun over the weekend. Didn't know you could have such fun with drain fittings and hairspray.
Skeeve Posted July 20, 2006 Posted July 20, 2006 A Red Herring. Yes the Big 5 stuff - pieced together from parts bins - as a whole I would agree is not terribly collectible, but some of it is. Some pearls have been found in those waters. But Big 5 doesn't represent the entirety of surplus firearms. How about the bigger picture? There are highly collectible, correct, numbers matching pieces out there in gun shops and private hands - some overseas, some in your home town. These ARE collectible and these ARE collected. Agreed. And chances are, that someone isn't as likely to modify one of those pearls, because they're going to do their homework, or take it for help to someone who has, and realize that they can sell their pearl to a collector for enough to pay for their next couple of blenderized base models. But even the parts guns can be used for - get ready for it - parts. Get ready for this: so can the remodeled gun! After all, the parts removed are largely going to find their way to fleaBay, and down the road, the chopped & flamed hot rod may find it's way to a pawnbroker or gunshop where someone who needs the action can get it. Ain't recycling grand? And yes, they were made by the millions, but millions don't remain. Take a look on any of the auction sites and tell me that supply and demand isn't ruling the day. Collectors are paying premium prices - prices unheard of not long ago - for military surplus rifles. I never though I'd see the day when a Smelly would fetch $500, or a Finn Mosin would sell for $500, or a Garand would be snapped up for $1500, or an O3A3 would bring $800. I remember when Krags sat in barrels in hardware stores for, I think, $8. Now try to find an excellent one that hasn't been Bubba'ed for 100 times that. Those numbers you quote are for the pearls: all numbers matching, stocks that aren't chewed to hell, etc. Let's face it: those examples have always had low numbers! The reason the Krags sat in barrels is because they couldn't be modified to take more modern, higher pressure cartridges due to their single-lug bolt and the less-than-superlative metallurgy of 19th century arms makers, and at the time, nobody wanted some dumb ol' turn of the last century rifle that couldn't handle the 30'06. BTW, prices were higher (in constant dollars) back before the auto-weapons ban back in the mid-80s (which also allowed reimportation of military arms that had been banned by GCA '68) than they are now; what you're seeing now is decreasing supply against a rather level demand pushing prices up. What?? "In the same quality for what I can pay for one of the surplus beaters" ?? Didn't you write this?: Sounds like they're ready for the recycling bin - Now suddenly they're 'quality'? ... If they're quality - if they're good enough to Bubba, leave them alone or sell them for parts to someone who appreciates them for what they are. The basic actions of these weapons are "quality;" just as we pay extra for Guzzis vs. their competitors because of their traditional design, these old rifles were built of machined receivers, craftmanship and intended to last several generations. Yes, they're "beaters" because they've been abused, but it's like an old loop-frame: the bones are there to take it down to bare metal, & rebuild it, better than it was before, faster, stronger - and for a WHOLE lot less than $6mil! To put it in perspective: in 1945, an M1 Garand cost the U.S. govt (iirc my stats correctly) about $46. You can't touch one of it's progeny (Springfield, Inc.'s M1-A, made to a lower quality standard) for less than 20x that today! As an alternative, would you agree that most folks don't shoot but a box or two a year? Keep an eye on your local paper or Nickel Want Ads and you'll see commercial rifles for sale year round - some for dirt cheap. These rifles probably haven't seen 500 rounds -- they're in BETTER shape than "one of the surplus beaters" that haven't been shot out and abused by poorly trained conscripts. Nickel Ads, huh? You must be in the Pac NorthWet... Sure, I'll buy that. Unfortunately, those "finders specials" are scarce on the ground, & usually go to the guy working behind the gun store or pawn counter when they come in. Sorry, haven't got the time to be constantly searching for those deals, esp. when there are (were) $80 8mm Mausers crying for someone to take them in, clean'em up, & rebarrel them to something interesting after they've gotten tired of running corrosive surplus 8mm thru them... It's kinda like buying a crashed sportbike that you then run around as your daily driver waiting for that sticky valve to finally decide to kick, since you know you're just going to tear it all down to rebuild as your track bike when it does... You can't have it both ways. Don't be ridiculous! Of course I can! This is AMERICA! If these surplus rifles are shot-out, junk beaters, they're no good for resale so why even bother to "Bubba" them. But if they're still serviceable they're not shot-out, junk beaters. An apparent contradiction... Only in your mind. If they're no good for resale, they'll end up as $2 muzzle-loaders in Bannermans, until a generation or two later, the "reenactors" start paying big money for them so they can round out their "kit." Meanwhile, some kid w/ not a lot of money, but lots of energy & time has taken one or two home, experimented, and developed a nifty sabot round or a revised ignition system using shotgun primers that he sells to all the BP hunters [who're only using BP in order to extend their hunting season, unlike all the "traditionalists" who turn up their noses & frown at all the new-fangled gimmickry, & go back to coming home meatless with their replica flintlocks [whom the replica matchlock fanciers cannot abide for their betrayal of real reenactment... ] Again, if they're beaters, they're beaters. If they're serviceable, they're serviceable. And Let's take a walk back to Big 5, shall we? Preach to me about the production quality of the Russian Mosins. Yet many are collectable for their rarity... Really? Then collect away! Better get to it before I do, 'cause about the only interest I have in a Moisin-Nagant that isn't already G-D accurate is converting it to a bolt carbine firing a nice thumper like 45LC or 44Mag. But that's just me... Certainly you're free to Bubba to your heart's content - nothing I can do about it. Actually, in a sick and twisted way, you're helping me by reducing the available pool and driving prices up. But you've made a failing analogy unless you were to butcher your Scura to an unrecoverable extent which, incidently, you're also perfectly free to do. But if you do butcher your Scura, that's one less Scura available for someone who might appreciate the Scura - in its stock form - to buy. True. But Scuras started off as a "limited edition," so you're not likely to find someone taking their Scura & then, for instance, trying to turn it into one of the "Telaio Rosso" wannabes. OTOH, my taking an 1896 Moisin-Nagant and turning it into a nifty little bolt-action carbine firing a heavy pistol round doesn't affect the price that much (except that I, inDUHvidually would achieve a loss in value, since I took a pre-1899 antique that doesn't require transfer docs and only has significant greater value because of this fact & turned it into something that legally would), barring the fact that I may find another buyer who wouldn't have paid the initial price for that same M-N, but fancies that little bolty carbine very much. Ya never know... And if you want to put a PCIII on your Enfield, feel froggy... Heh! That was cute... Apparently you and I have a different definition of 'appreciate' when it comes to surplus rifles. You apparently 'appreciate' an accurate rifle as do I - we've found a little bit of commonality. But I respect the history represented in an old military arm. That is what I mean when I use the word 'appreciate'. I respect the history represented in an old military arm too much to butcher it. As do I, in an all original, non-parts-blendered firearm that is of historical significance. In the list of rifles you provided with the high prices, didja notice the %age that were from the "winning" sides? Hm, the Finns captured a bunch of clunky Soviet (Belgian) rifles & turned'em into something pretty darn hot. The Brits won the War to End All Wars with the SMLE. The U.S. crushed Fascism in WWII, held back Communism in Korea, & armed the rest of the free world with the Garand. The 03A3 wasn't even all that *popular* until Saving Private Ryan came out. By the way - there are many old, shot-out, drug-through-the-mud-battered-etc-etc-etc surplus rifles that will hold 2 moa well past 100m. Hmm. Methinks we've got a communications problem. If it's holding better'n 2moa w/ surplus ammo, it ain't hardly "shot out," is it? Anyway, there are many options available to you in the arena of accurate rifles - options that don't have to include butchering a rifle. Thank goodness you don't own a 10/22! Next thing you'd be telling me is not to "butcher" it by dropping in a target hammer... But again, butcher to your heart's content. It's your right. This is the paragraph with which I most agree except that many do not have 'poor sights'. We've found a bit more commonality. Apparently... But they do affect me. They affect the whole body of folks who 'appreciate' these old rifles. Yep. No man is an island (or rather, we all are, but we're in a crowded archipelago!) Fact is, that most of the surplus guns of which we're debating undeniably do have poor sights, from the standpoint of useability and clarity; the outstanding exceptions being those of the Garand, '03A3 & P17 Enfield [oddly enough, all of US extraction, & all with sights incorporating lessons learned in WWI...] but let's not get too caught up in details [as I'm certain all the other non-firearms owning motorcyclists reading this thread are more than ready for us to do! ] Sorry if my stance on this issue offends you. I'll have to buy a stripped M1 receiver from the CMP & send it to Fulton Armory for the full match treatment in your honor, just 'cause restoring it to better-than-original-but-not-historically-correct-condition will probably sending you screaming over a cliff in horror... Ride on, PS - No, I have no idea why my quoting of your text is no longer showing up properly. Jaap?
Guest Aughtsix Posted July 20, 2006 Posted July 20, 2006 I'll have to buy a stripped M1 receiver from the CMP & send it to Fulton Armory for the full match treatment in your honor, just 'cause restoring it to better-than-original-but-not-historically-correct-condition will probably sending you screaming over a cliff in horror... Well now, THAT you'll have to let me shoot...
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