Bill v. Army (Yes, M/C Content!)

[Bill Hagan]

Well, after a lifetime around the Army, I finally filed an inspector-general complaint ... and a freedom-of-information-act request. Yikes.

 

As these involve motorcycling and, in particular, motorcycles on military installations, thought I post the former here. The FOIA was, essentially, for all correspondence, including emails, relating to motorcycle safety at our local installations.

 

The short version is that military demographics and other considerations lead to what appears to be a disproportionate number of motorcycle deaths and serious injuries among military personnel. That is expensive in obvious and other ways. The Army, tho less now than formerly, remains a paternal organization (not a bad thing, IMO), thus leaders are trying to find ways to reduce those sad numbers.

 

Unfortunately, some of the ways are fornicatingly stupid and CYA more than helpful.

 

In my case, our local garrison commander issued a new regulation that requires, among other things, additional personal protective equipment (PPE) beyond that required by the Department of Defense and the Army. The Army rules require prior approval before local commanders may supplement them. Doubting that had happened, I filed the attached complaint about 10 days ago. Not much has happened, and it may take awhile. In the meantime, the gate guards--whom I try never to hassle, as theirs is a tough job already--gave me a "courtesy warning" that the post now requires a complete reflective vest.

 

I'll let you know how it turns out. "Fighting city hall" is always a struggle, so I'm not optimistic in this Bill v. Army match, but we shall see.

 

To read the (long-winded, but you'd expect nothing less ) complaint, go here: http://snipurl.com/u62v

 

Bill

 

P.S. Yes, I know, I know, there are a few typos, so don't tell me about them.

[Guest ratchethack]

Bill, I applaud your effort! Of course this is merely the start of one of those "camel's nose under the tent" budding bureaucratic extravaganza/gravy trains that needs to be shut down HARD, EARLY, and OFTEN!

 

Thanks for seeing this for what it is and having the courage and selfless dedication to go after it!!

 

It ain't hard to imagine that following close behind would come training wheels, seatbelts, roll cages, airbags, and while we're at it, why not just make those training wheels ever so much safer by re-arranging them onto a front axle with a pair followed by a rear axle with a pair!!!

 

What're the chances that motorcycles would EVER be approved as a new vehicle if newly introduced today????

 

Go get 'em, Bill!

[coz1100]

You've picked a topic that is close to home for me. I have tried from time to time at some of the instilations I have riden on to get them to see that the reflective vest don't really help with visability. If anything on more then one occation they have almost gotten me ran over by drivers with object fixation as they staired at the nice pritty orenge vest I was wairing in the middle of a bright sun day.

 

Also not to mention that the majority of riders that I have gone on and off base with seem to remove the vest as soon as they leave base thus nagating the benafits of the vest where it would matter most: In the heavy traffic usually associated around many of the military base just before or after working hours or shift changes.

 

The navy regs for riders have slowly been tightening down for the last few years. The lattes being the requierment to not only have proof of completting the MSF course but also needing to retake the course every two years. This I think is a step in the right direction. I'm not sure about the rest of you but I know I had developed a few bad habits over my short time of riding .

 

I wish you the best of luck in this matter Bill and if thier is anyway I can help just let me know.

 

Caio

Z

[todd haven]

GO BILL. BEAT ARMY!!

 

I noticed Wildguzzi shut has been shut down.

Immediately after a similar post.

 

Care to explain your involvement?

 

I thought not.

I might have expected as much.

Your silence speaks volumes.

 

You sly, Imperialist pig-dog

[Beuphonium]

Greetings all-

 

Having been a licensed motorcycle operator for many years, one can only imagine my frustration when I was forced to park my Guzzi in a secure, undisclosed location for two months because I was not in posession of a MSF card. Now that I have the card, and my icon vest, life is not too bad, but for others in the same boat, forced to park off post until they attend the class two months from now, the frustration lives on. I shall watch this topic with much interest...

[DeBenGuzzi]

I'm sorry, but WHAT the hell are you ppl talking about?

[dlaing]

Alright Bill!

Way to sock it to "The Man"!

PS what are the militarybase rules on boots for motorcycles?

Is it true they have to be steel toe and that standard race boots don't meet the law?

[Bill Hagan]

Something that should be on a stateside forum. This is an intenational forum.

With all due respect sir, and I (vaugely) unerstand your struggle. Our beaurocrats are without peer... but Please post this topic its avenue. (wildguzzi).

You will with certainty, enjoy greater response.

 

Well, you have the advantage of me, as, regrettably, I seem to miss your point, or, perhaps, you, mine.

 

Surely the exercise of governmental power--whether in South Africa, Germany, Singapore, i.e., wherever--that restricts the use and enjoyment of motorcycles is of interest to other motorcyclists, wherever they live and is, thus, worthy of an international. forum.

 

In this instance, a US Government entity, the Army, purports to issue a rule that exceeds what I, at least, see as its lawful powers. Is such "international" only when it originates outside of one's country? If so, you and I could not post of any matter arising within the USA, and JAAP, restricted to the Netherlands. That would be (again, assuming I understand your point) an odd result, at least to me.

 

I note that Beuphonium and coz1100, who posted in response, recognize the issue. Would you like to park your Guzzi for so long as did the former becuase of the unchecked actions of bureaucrats? I vote no, thus my complaint to authorities and the posting of what I thought would be of general interest here and on wildguzzi.

 

One last comment. Based on my many up-close-and-personal experience with bureaucrats in North America, Asia, and Europe, as much as I am proud of things American, I don't think our bureaucrats would make it to the quarter-finals.

 

My apologies if I have missed your message, but I appreciate the opportunity you gave me to make mine clearer.

 

Regards from Atlanta,

 

Bill

 

P.S. No, dlaing, as I understand the DoD PPE, the DoD rule says only this: "Sturdy Footwear is mandatory. Leather boots or over the ankle shoes are strongly encouraged.". SeeDoD Instruction 6055.4, "DoD Traffic Safety Program", http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/...099/i60554p.pdf The Army rule goes further: "e. Soldiers will wear proper eye protection, full-fingered gloves, long trousers, long-sleeved shirt or jacket, high-visibility garments (bright color for day and retroreflective for night), and leather boots

or over-the-ankle shoes whenever and wherever they operate or ride a motorcycle or moped." See para B.3.e, AR 385-55, http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r385_55.pdf

[Martin Barrett]

Vintage and Bill are both right.

 

It will no doubt raise more replies on the Wildguzzi as is more relevent there as US focused. I don't know if there are any US members here who do not look in there, but how frequently. I do dip into the UK one but my focus is here (Ok not quite like for like ). From Todds post I get the impression that it's been cross posted anyway.

 

This topic does intrest me, although it doesn't effect me directly. I'm glad to see it posted.

 

My understanding is that some of your roads you ride are in military bases (training areas) and therefore you are subject to their rules and regulations to do so. And perhaps the National Parks also are set up the same way? Even if only effects closed to public bases it's still of intrest. Over here on bases normal road traffic act applies and the normal extra restriction applied is a lower speed limit, the only other restriction I've come across is airfield endorsements but as you can't drive down the aisles in Wally World either thats fair enough.

[Guest SantaFeRider]

Mr. Hagan's post interests me as a civilian who sometimes rides inside military installations.

 

Take, i.e. visits to the Trinity site in my State of New Mexico.

 

It opens to the public only two days a year; once in the Spring and once in Autumn.

 

Riders from all over the country make the ride.

 

How'd you like riding a few hundred (or thousand) miles to get to the gate in your black leathers and find out that you need a mandatory orange or lime green vest or no go? Or have a security guard clad in black SWAT fatigues decide if your footwear is adequate to make the ride? You'd be about 100 miles from anywhere when these are brought to you by your friendly bureaucrat and the several interpretations filtering down the line of commad.

 

The US keeps military facilities all over the world, so Mr. Hagan's post is not of Stateside interest only.

 

I thank Mr. Hagan for his effort and posting.

 

[VA Sean]

Besides... we can't post on wildguzzi today

 

the site seems to be down!

 

Cheers Bill!

[Nick]

Besides... we can't post on wildguzzi today

 

the site seems to be down!

 

and productivity has increased by 75% in the US today!

 

Good Luck Bill.

[DeBenGuzzi]

I try not to post on wildguzzi, I waste enough time on-line as it is, and AS far as Minnesota is concerned civilians are not allowed on military installations so I guess thats why I'm scratching my head all the bases around here are very self contained and have guards posted with M16's There are roads but they are like I said self contained so unless I worked for the military or was in the military I don't think this has anything to do with how its done here?

[pete roper]

While this topic isn't really V11 or Guzzi related, (Bill never said it was.) I do think it has general relevance. This sort of insidious stupidness is a creeping disease. It may move at a fairly glacial pace but it does move. The problem being that while, at the moment, the *rules* may only be being applied on US army bases you can bet your bottom dollar that next time some *safety* obsessed politician or desk-driver decides that they are going to do something, anything, to limit the carnage caused bt two-wheeled death-traps they will go trawling looking for pre-existing rules and regs, (Easier and less effort than actually doing proper research and coming up with any new ideas!). In the USA especially, probably far more than many other countries, the military is revered and honoured to the point where it is, in a lot of quarters, seen as almost traitorous to question *anything* about their rules, actions or behavior. this ISN'T a criticism, simply an observation made by an *outsider* who has spent time in the US.

 

This attitude means that it makes it VERY difficult to be critical of *army* rules if you're an outsider, or at least I imagine it would. That doesn't mean that you couldn't, perish the thought, 'Free Speech' and all that, but it does mean that there are going to be a substantial number of people, and probably people who matter, who will effectively dismiss any criticism from such quarters as the ravings of wild-eyed, commo, loonys.

 

So we have the potential for these wonderful new *Safety Initiatives* to bee seen and adopted by civil juristictions in the USA for everyday use, maybe only in a couple of states, but then some time wasting, tea sipper in Brussels will notice it and start a hue and cry to have the same, eminently sensible rules, introduced in Europe. I mean if it has the blessing of certain people in the USA, (And almost certainly some spurious statistics to back it up!) it will be an ideal opportunity to *prove* the effectiveness of such measures with almost no cost, leaving loads more money to fund the shiny-bum-gravy-train that is the EU beaurocracy! Shortly thereafter some sleepy-eyed idiot in Canberra will be trawling the net trying to download cyber-porn at his workstation and will stumble across it and see the ideal opportunity to make a name for himself as the 'Great Protector' of road safety. I mean if it's good enough for Europe and the USA then it has to be good doesn't it? And if we try and make as much of this legislation *universal* won't it make things easy for everybody!

 

It's a creeping disease as I said! Personally I have no problem with helmet compulsion, I also am very glad to see that over the years most riders have chosen to start wearing the best protective gear they can get or afford, but this has come about not through 'Compulsion' but through education and also, to a certain degree, the 'Cool' factor. For serious riders it is not only seen as silly but also 'Un-cool' to ride without decent protective gear, that's a good thing, and modern protective gear is a lot more comfortable and offers better protection by far than the stuff I used to have to ride with when I was a kid. BUT!!!! while bright colours *may* help with visibility, (Most modern riding gear makes you look like you're wearing a clown suit!) being *visible* even if you're wearing a silly day-glo vest won't protect you from errant drivers, poorly maintained roads or machinery OR the false sense of security that such safety equipment *can* engender in some people, especially the young, nieve and inexperienced.

 

To get back to the original point Bill is probably in a fairly unique position in this case as he is an *insider* within the armed forces, (Yes, yes Bill, I know you've retired and only work as a contractor but you are respected and have *clout*. That helps a lot!) he can't simply be dismissed as some crazed rat-bag and can at least TRY to fight this sort of stupidness 'At Source' as it were, an opportunity not available to the rest of us. This isn't an issue of *freedom*, a word that is IMHO bandied around far too freely and in relation to things far less important and therefore de-valued. It's simply a matter of common sense and a need to fight the continual production of more and more un-neccessary and counter productive legislation. I don't see it as soley a US issue Ben, it's ramifications go much further than that. And I noticed that Bill did cross post his msg. on WG and then the site crashed! Perhaps he is a raving Commo after all and the depasrtment of homeland security felt compelled to shut WG down to silence his crazed, seditious rantings

 

Pete

[g.forrest]

having lived a good part of my life abought military bases i see the authorities point. the expensive to train personel wipe there selves out at rates much higher than the general populace. i've allways thought it was down to tax free alcahol. they should wear the orange overalls possibly or not be allowed on the roads at all. and take orders as they swear they do. and be prepaired to die under orders. and not on the roads.