Dan M Posted January 29, 2008 Posted January 29, 2008 Yes Antonio, Mike Rich. http://www.mikerichmotorsports.com/MGproducts.htm Seems like I'm saying his name often lately. (hope he remembers when I send my heads for porting ) I see no problem with quality. They come coated and mic'd out exactly the same as stock. I can't comment about FBF but with all of the talk of pinging around here I would not want to bump up the compression that much.
Pierre Posted January 29, 2008 Posted January 29, 2008 I think I have got it, it's Mike Rich, isn't? Well Mike Rich's price Piston + valve=482,- USD FBF price pistons + valve= 440,-USD A difference of 40,- Dollrs, What should be the difference in quality? Anthony, I don't know about "quality" from a materials stand point, but I do recall a thread in which the piston shapes were analyzed and several here noted a superior squish band with the MR pistons. As I recall those here in the know opined that It looked like the MR's had a less pronounced dome (for more direct flame travel), but a more extensive squish band extending further up the head wall for better turbulence and faster flame propagation. I think that's how a motor can tolerate higher compression, by adding squish and shortening flame path. If you then twin plug the head you can further shorten the flame path, allowing you to retard the timing (reduced ping) while still getting full burn. As to FBF credentials vs those of Mike Rich - well I don't know FBF as a Guzzi specialist. I do know Mike has been building racing guzzis for at least 20 years - Charley Cole's very successful efforts and of course the land speed record setting guzzi (a sport i) sponsored some years back by MGNOC in the US are just two of many.
antonio carroccio Posted January 29, 2008 Posted January 29, 2008 Thx Pietro... I hope to receive more opinions about this quality difference.
al_roethlisberger Posted January 29, 2008 Posted January 29, 2008 I have MR pistons, and so far no problems. I can't really comment on before/after though, as the bike was in the shop for so long during the "upgrade"(during case swap) that it was like riding a new bike when I got it back... I swear I can't speak for FBF, but I can say that my "customer experience" with Mike Rich was superior. He was always happy to chat and answer questions and concerns, and explain his products. He was also quick to tell me when spending more $$ wasn't really going to get me what I wanted. I really appreciated that, as he certainly could have sold me a number of other "go fast gizmos" but tried to steer me toward the products that aligned well with what I said I was trying to achieve. And, when the shop broke several rings during their "learning curve" of installing the new pistons, Mike sent them new ones, no charge. Even if you aren't certain you want/need new pistons, cam, porting, etc.... calling Mike may be a good idea to help you identify what is a good fit for your needs. Like Pete Roper, he seems to be very pragmatic and honest about real benefits versus fashion. Al
antonio carroccio Posted January 30, 2008 Posted January 30, 2008 don't need to change the valve.... Further, Ferracci has mailed me, shipping to Holland would be 120 USD. I will ask Mike Rich...
dlaing Posted January 30, 2008 Posted January 30, 2008 don't need to change the valve.... Further, Ferracci has mailed me, shipping to Holland would be 120 USD. I will ask Mike Rich... Egahd! drugs get smuggled for less money than that! Did you try here: http://www.ferracci.it/ instead of here: http://www.ferracci.com/ ?
antonio carroccio Posted January 30, 2008 Posted January 30, 2008 Yes Dave, the Italian one does not have those pistons. The pistons does have to be imported from the States. And after that shipped to Holland. Kind of flipper box effect. I would ask at Mike Rich. It does not matter for the money, but a little bit service for a Guzzista
Pierre Posted January 30, 2008 Posted January 30, 2008 don't need to change the valve.... Further, Ferracci has mailed me, shipping to Holland would be 120 USD. I will ask Mike Rich... Antonio, here's a few suggestions. All JMHO - but with a pretty extensive sport i hop up under my belt to draw upon. When you call Mike, have a goal in mind. What are you trying to accomplish? I'm afraid dropping new slugs in won't yield much in and of itself. Maybe bump the mid range a little, but possibly at the price of some pinging. So you should start with "what do I want from this motor" and that will dictate what you need to "do" to the motor. If you're chasing HP (and who isn't?) - a new cam is the cheapest and quickest way there. You can hit mid to high 80 RWHP with pretty much just a new cam. Mike can tell you what grind gets you what HP - and more importantly he can tell you what else you need to do to the motor to fully exploit the new cam ... but cams are the easiest most straight forward bang for the buck (euro). Next is head work. Flowed heads will help you get the most out of the new cam. Only after new cam and flowed heads (or at same time) would I consider pistons. New slugs will help you fill in the mid range and help offset any loss of power there since a new (more aggressive) cam will have moved it up the rpm range a little, or a lot. But NOW now you will have to deal with ignition timing issues. Depending on the cam selected (remember, a more aggressive overlap lowers the effective CR) I wouldn't go high compression without retarding the timing. I wouldn't retard the timing without dual plugging the head. So new slugs immediately puts you into the realm of multiple issues - much more so than a new cam and some head work. It's all doable ... but what do you want to get done? If you just want new pistons, well - ya' can't see 'em once they're installed and just dropping them in without other modifications, I doubt you'll feel 'em much either. Have a goal. Let Mike (or another experienced engine builder) explain how to achieve your goal. Wherever you want to get to, he's already been there. He knows how to do it. Someone (many someones) before you spent a lot of money adding to his data base. Take advantage of that. Hopping up your ride is great fun - but it's a lot more fun, and a lot less expensive BTW, if you know what you want before you start. Enjoy.
antonio carroccio Posted January 30, 2008 Posted January 30, 2008 Pierre, Unfortunately you do not know me personally, I have done a lot of work on my bike. Flashing ECU three times, camshaft from Scola, not the RS, but the OSS for more torque, new chain+support, K&N pods to have more speed (not only torque) and a lot of other I cannot remember, I am sorry for that. I am thinking, I have rode now 70k km. so maybe I do have to let make some registration at the pistons at 100k km. If I do change the pistons with some new, it’s a win situation for me and for the bike. I was really, and I mean REALLY thinking about flow the heads and make it twin sparks. I do know a mechanic here in village where I leave, who use to work (not anymore) in the army in Holland for 24 years. You must know the Dutch army still use the V50. The V11 is not different from the V50, just only the injection syst. And he knows another mechanic also here in the village who flows heads. But the pistons still have run 70k km. I dunno anymore…… Maybe I will flow the heads and make it twin sparks and get the hell out here.
Pierre Posted January 30, 2008 Posted January 30, 2008 Pierre, Unfortunately you do not me personally, I have done a lot of work on my bike. ... But the pistons still have run 70k km. I dunno anymore…… Maybe I will flow the heads and make it twin sparks and get the hell out here. Antonio, didn't mean to imply you were new to this or unsophisticated. Nor was I trying to suggest I knew all the answers. I am NOT the hackster! I was just trying to suggest that there are those who make a living making motors make more power, and their gudance is invaluable. the points I made were an attempt to lay out the issues I (IMHO) felt should be addressed before embarking on motor work. So ... at the risk of further pissing you off ( ) ... how about this? ... if you are considering flowing and dual plugging the heads anyway, why not deck them at the same time? That'll get you your CR increase, and get you better squish as well. I don't think pistons wear out, and I've never heard of any quality issues with the guzzi stock pistons. If you want an ignition map for just such an approach, I've got it on a spread sheet. Same grid as on the ecu program you use to flash the chip. Happy to send it along. Many ways to skin this cat, Antonia. Just not clear where you want to go with the motor. If it's piston life, I don't think that's an issue. Stock is fine. Life of the motor stuff. I got 92 RWHP with cam, dual plugged and decked (and cleaned up, not flowed) heads and stock pistons. But I'm running a very radical cam (RR3). Take a look at this article: http://www.guzzitech.com/Sporti-EngMods_PierreP.html and this article: http://www.guzzitech.com/JTsRosso-PtII-John_T.html Two slightly different appproaches, but each focused on cam and head work. Now a lot of the (really expensive) mods described in both those articles have nothing to do with making power. Carillo rods, lightened clutch, (even new pistons) etc may change the way the motor feels a little, but they're mods on the margin. Power comes from cams and head work. Period. Again, JMHO. And believe me, I wouldn't have engaged in this discussion with you if I didn't recognize you've been down many of these roads already. Just sharing the adventure, and the pain. Good luck with it my friend.
antonio carroccio Posted January 30, 2008 Posted January 30, 2008 1)So ... at the risk of further pissing you off ( ) ... how about this? ... if....2)........... Antonia. ..................... 3)Good luck with it my friend. 1) not at all Pierre. I like sparring on this forum, while this is keeping civil. 2).......????.......are you talking to me? 3)yeah, it's my ass, I have to wear,cover,defend,etc. it. So, I can use some luck sometimes. Just arrived the answer from Mike Rich. The pistons( on their site for 389,99 USD) are now for sale 456,66 USD. Almost 20% increase. Damn, all these voices in my head are making me crazy...
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