Is My Engine OK?

[Janusz]

Tonight after my ride I stopped in the garage, lost my footing and BAM, the dreaded 0 km/hr bike fall (to the left). It was for the third time since 2001 and there is no even a scratch anywhere...

 

The engine kept on running for some seconds before I turned it off with the red emergency button. It go me thinking. Since engine kept on idling on its side obviously there was no oil pressure, was it? Could say 7 seconds of that cause any damage somewhere? Would it be significant?

 

Please put my mind at ease, any body who knows. Thanks.

[Martin Barrett]

The pick up is on the left front, so perhaps it wasn't exposed

Did the light come on?

[pasotibbs]

If it wasn't revving its nuts off I think you'll be fine as the engine wasn't under any load.

I wouldn't make a habit of it though

[pete roper]

Mate, don't fret. When tappet heads like Greg and I worry about oil starvation what we are talking about is really high load, (Comparatively.) long time applications. If Greg is trying to launch into a freeway off the slip-road he's going to be accelerating HARD which means all the bearings are going to be taking max load and max heat. Cut the oil supply off and rapid death will occur.

 

While tipping the great tart over on it's side isn't to be recommended at any time if the revs were low and there was little or any load then the damage will of been minimal. If yoy left it thre reving it's tits off for a minute while checking your voicemail before hitting the kill switch then, yes, you'd have a problem. But low speed, low load? It can cope with that for a few seconds. It's not *good* and should be avoided at all costs but don't die in a ditch over it.

 

If it's any consolation quite early in the piece I had a customer come up to my shop. We met at my house and I rode back with him to the workshop. Him on his bike, me on the Griso. We got to the shop and I, (like a f@ckwit! ) flipped out the sidestand on the big 'G' and leant it over to the left........ Only I hadn't flipped out the sidestand had I and proceeded to lay it over on it's side with my leg underneath it. Engine running, yadda-yadda, has it died yet? No! I nearly did, of shame but f@ck-wittery is my middle name so no surprises there . Hit the kill switch, cursed a lot, accepted that the customer was a lost cause, (I mean? Would you trust your pride and joy to someone who rides up to his workshop and falls over???? )

 

No, there is a difference between serious abuse and the odd 'Ooopsie!' The principals and physics are still the same but the loadings are, in real terms, inconsequential, if you just drop it at idle. Go and have a beer or three and smack your head on something solid a few times and don't do it again! (I would like to think I won't either but I'm a pragmatic realist )

 

Pete

 

Mate, don't fret. When tappet heads like Greg and I worry about oil starvation what we are talking about is really high load, (Comparatively.) long time applications. If Greg is trying to launch into a freeway off the slip-road he's going to be accelerating HARD which means all the bearings are going to be taking max load and max heat. Cut the oil supply off and rapid death will occur.

 

While tipping the great tart over on it's side isn't to be recommended at any time if the revs were low and there was little or any load then the damage will of been minimal. If you left it thre reving it's tits off for a minute while checking your voicemail before hitting the kill switch then, yes, you'd have a problem. But low speed, low load? It can cope with that for a few seconds. It's not *good* and should be avoided at all costs but don't die in a ditch over it.

 

If it's any consolation quite early in the piece I had a customer come up to my shop. We met at my house and I rode back with him to the workshop. Him on his bike, me on the Griso. We got to the shop and I, (like a f@ckwit! ) flipped out the sidestand on the big 'G' and leant it over to the left........ Only I hadn't flipped out the sidestand had I and proceeded to lay it over on it's side with my leg underneath it. Engine running, yadda-yadda, has it died yet? No! I nearly did, of shame but f@ck-wittery is my middle name so no surprises there . Hit the kill switch, cursed a lot, accepted that the customer was a lost cause, (I mean? Would you trust your pride and joy to someone who rides up to his workshop and falls over???? )

 

No, there is a difference between serious abuse and the odd 'Ooopsie!' The principals and physics are still the same but the loadings are, in real terms, inconsequential, if you just drop it at idle. Go and have a beer or three and smack your head on something solid a few times and don't do it again! (I would like to think I won't either but I'm a pragmatic realist )

 

Pete

[Alex-Corsa]

Tonight after my ride I stopped in the garage, lost my footing and BAM, the dreaded 0 km/hr bike fall (to the left). It was for the third time since 2001 and there is no even a scratch anywhere...

 

The engine kept on running for some seconds before I turned it off with the red emergency button. It go me thinking. Since engine kept on idling on its side obviously there was no oil pressure, was it? Could say 7 seconds of that cause any damage somewhere? Would it be significant?

 

Please put my mind at ease, any body who knows. Thanks.

 

 

AFAIK you wouldn't have to worry about that incident alone, an engine, can even work without oil for some miles. O.K. then will be damaged but here we are talking with oil in only some seconds, and no oil light went on?

Even if it did , I have this example , the oil light came on more than once in mine while riding in rain (I was reving over 6K rpm traveling at high speed highway,I pulled out ASAP but took a while ) it happened a couple of times but the motor is in perfect condition. Yes I know,it cause it has been oppened and everything looked as new after 65K km. Frequent oil change preserves engine's life.

[pasotibbs]

AFAIK you wouldn't have to worry about that incident alone, an engine, can even work without oil for some miles. O.K. then will be damaged but here we are talking with oil in only some seconds, and no oil light went on?

Even if it did , I have this example , the oil light came on more than once in mine while riding in rain (I was reving over 6K rpm traveling at high speed highway,I pulled out ASAP but took a while ) it happened a couple of times but the motor is in perfect condition. Yes I know,it cause it has been oppened and everything looked as new after 65K km. Frequent oil change preserves engine's life.

That sounds more like the sensor failing when its wet than a genuine oil pressure fault to me.

Loss of oil pressure under load for more than a few seconds is almost always going to be terminal.

[pete roper]

That sounds more like the sensor failing when its wet than a genuine oil pressure fault to me.

Loss of oil pressure under load for more than a few seconds is almost always going to be terminal.

 

Exactly. You want to do the sums? The circumfirence of a circle is Pi x the diameter of the circle. Pi is 3.142. Take the diameter of the big end journal and do the sum. Them multiply it by 6,000 and turn it into metres per second. Then turn it into Km per hour.

 

Next imagine how your arse would feel if you were dragged behind a car along a piece of smooth sheet steel with no lubrication at that speed. How do you think your date would feel after say? 3 seconds?

 

Grab the butter and wake up to the idea that sh!t happens real quick in a motor and running without pressure fed lubrication for more than a few seconds, even under minor load, will kill the bearings stone dead. This isn't paranoid tappet-head-talk, it's very simple physics and common sense. You can't run a plain bearing motor without oil and with any appreciable load for any longer for the residual lubrication to be expelled and boundary lubrication to occur. At 6,000RPM and under full load the time that takes is less than the blink of an eye!

 

Pete

[pasotibbs]

[Alex-Corsa]

That sounds more like the sensor failing when its wet than a genuine oil pressure fault to me.

Loss of oil pressure under load for more than a few seconds is almost always going to be terminal.

 

Perhaps was a lamp failure but then again that tells me how 'reliable' is Moto Guzzi's sensors, I mean should I worry.?

I pretty much doupt that (second), another example is at my friend R1 ('99) that the oil lamp was coming on and off pretty often on the bike.Of cource that was obvious cause he was pretty careless about changing oil (he never did for 2 years or so he even has gotten the bike used).Unbelivelable to me ,the bike worked well producing top speeds of 270+kmh even after 5-6 tkm riding with the lamp going occational on for more than some seconds, and that was not a lamp failure since the bike was working with half the oil in the sump (and old oil as well). I don't say that the bike's motor wouldn't have any damage but definatelly comparing to what I saw there happening all that time ,and yes believe it or not, this is a true story, ,oil lamp means nothing to me for just a few seconds.

 

And because theory is theory and action is action , the diagnose in such occasions is to remove the oil and filter and see if there are any metals on the magnet of the oil screw and the filter. So we don't have to talk about it but do something about it.

Of cource it would be the best to tear the motor appart and measure every point, going to the extremes.

[Janusz]

Perhaps was a lamp failure but then again that tells me how 'reliable' is Moto Guzzi's sensors, I mean should I worry.?

I pretty much doupt that (second), another example is at my friend R1 ('99) that the oil lamp was coming on and off pretty often on the bike.Of cource that was obvious cause he was pretty careless about changing oil (he never did for 2 years or so he even has gotten the bike used).Unbelivelable to me ,the bike worked well producing top speeds of 270+kmh even after 5-6 tkm riding with the lamp going occational on for more than some seconds, and that was not a lamp failure since the bike was working with half the oil in the sump (and old oil as well). I don't say that the bike's motor wouldn't have any damage but definatelly comparing to what I saw there happening all that time ,and yes believe it or not, this is a true story, ,oil lamp means nothing to me for just a few seconds.

 

And because theory is theory and action is action , the diagnose in such occasions is to remove the oil and filter and see if there are any metals on the magnet of the oil screw and the filter. So we don't have to talk about it but do something about it.

Of cource it would be the best to tear the motor appart and measure every point, going to the extremes.

 

 

I'd like to avoid impression that I know a lot but since I also have an R1 and ride it frequently (fantastic bike, by the way) I am able to say with conviction that on R1 the oil lamp is just an "oil level lamp" and not 'oil pressure lamp'.

 

I also noticed, especially on my other Yamaha, that this oil level indicator is just that, an indicator without any hint of precision. The oil can be a half full and under heavy acceleration or on the long incline the light can come on anytime.

 

It is just suggesting that you better check your oil level sometime soon.

 

I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU ALL FOR ANSWERING. Peter R.; it was such a pleasure to read your long and entertaining explanation. I don't know if you realize, but in my case you were a main inspiration to buy my first (and only so far, can't have it all) Guzzi in 2001 after i read so many of your posts on Australian forum.

 

Hope your Griso is at least as good as my V11S .

[Alex-Corsa]

I'd like to avoid impression that I know a lot but since I also have an R1 and ride it frequently (fantastic bike, by the way) I am able to say with conviction that on R1 the oil lamp is just an "oil level lamp" and not 'oil pressure lamp'.

 

Well said , .... hmmm so here we have a pressure lamp , that lights whenever it is wet around and who knows when else as false and then another bike with a lamp that just indicates oil level.

Nothing I can trust. I trust what I check and control for myself. So should I have a suspicion ? , I go ahead and check it out.

[callison]

I did that, and then put another 45,000 miles or so on the bike. I wouldn't worry any.

[Guest Gary Cheek]

As far as the warning light issue; The warning light can come on while there is still 5 0r 10 psi in the system.In that event, as long as the engine isn't heavily loaded or running at high speed the engine is usually OK. You didn't do it any favors but it won't sit down and die. Also the Guzzi oil senders are notorious for failing. Usually giving a false low pressure indication along with an oil leak at the bakelite to metal crimp.

 

Regarding the dumped bike; The few seconds it took to shut her down may have seemed a lifetime but you a probably OK. It isn't too bag a job to drop the pan, lift the caps and have a look, it may help the trust factor on the next trip if you knew the bearing condition.

[Janusz]

Sorry for dragging the thread on but now...

 

I remember dropping the pan last year and admiring the view. Could somebody then explain where and what for do you look to check the bearing condition?

 

Hoping there is no any disassebly involved, is it?

[pete roper]

Errr, well, yes. There is a LOT of disassembley involved if you want to check the main bearings, like, engine out and on the bench and a complete strip!

 

You can, if you want, remove the *big* sump and then undo the four bolts that hold the oil filter/thermostat housing in and pull that out. That will allow you access to the bottom of the connecting rods and you *can*, if you wish, undo the bolts that retain the big end caps , remove the caps and inspect the big end shells. The thing is that if you do this it is STRONGLY advisable to replace the big end bolts on re-assembley otherwise you risk a bolt failure with all the horrors involved in that.

 

Look, unless you think there is something wrong there should be no reason to need to inspect the big ends. While they can be damaged by oil starvation once this has occured there isn't a lot you can do and as long as they are still working well enough to, errr? work, there isn't really a lot of point worrying about them. If they do go tits you'll hear them and as soon as you do if you shut the engine of then, if you're lucky, the crank will survive.

 

If you whip the sump off it's worth checking the bolts that hold the oil filter/thermostat housing on are tight as there have been reported failures due to these coming loose and therefore dumping oil pressure. When that's off you can have a perve at the crank and rods but it won't actually tell you much. People like to do it though. If you want to see what it *basivcally* looks like though just go and have a look at my engine strip/rebuild on the Guzzitech Dk site. There isn't anything *major* different in your engine apart from the sump design.

 

Pete