One More Thing

[Bill Hagan]

Having posted here twice today [http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8543 &

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8923 ], I'm back with one more ... and, I promise, my last.

 

So, there I was, trying to install my new speedo cable. [FWIW, I eventually gave up, and will try again a few beers from now. ]

 

The first went out at c. 900 miles; the 2d at c. 22,000 (actually, exactly 21813.8, but since that didn't include about a K before I got a replacement, I suppose "c." will do).

 

At least this time, I can get the actual unclocked miles down to pretty close to right as it happened at the end of the ride up to Erie.

 

Anyway ... the second one broke about 3 inches up from the low end. I also noted it had rust on it. And -- see pic -- quite a bit of corrosion on the mount.

 

 

Is that normal? Am I supposed to be lubing this thing (cable, etc.)? If so, how?

 

Note that I will automatically ignore any pointers on using special woodpecker beak oil submitted by belfastguzzi.

 

Hmmmmm. Since I said I wouldn't post again (at least in a topic-starting mode), I better two-fer this and ask if anyone knows whether the "long threaded" end or the "short threaded" end of a head stud goes into the head, with the corresponding other end left for the acorn-nut fastener? It's a long (and painful-for-me-to-relate) story of why I need to know.

[belfastguzzi]

posted here twice today ...

Is that normal? Am I supposed to be lubing this thing (cable, etc.)? If so, how?

It's a common mistake in parts of the Americas to use special woodpecker beak oil in this application. The resulting corrosion can be terminal. 'Eau de JRT' hair gel keeps things slick. Insert the stuff into cable sleeve using a woodpecker's beak.

[Guest ratchethack]

Am I supposed to be lubing this thing (cable, etc.)? If so, how?

Bill, IMHO the "common wisdom" on maintenance here seems to be, "run it dry until it breaks, then replace."

 

Many would no doubt consider the following "ultra-paranoiac, compulsive, and delusional Guzzichondria", but o'course I (for one) couldn't care less.

 

I've always used the same technique when lubing speedo cables. Detach the cable at the instrument and clip it onto something to hold it vertical with a clothes pin or equivalent. Using masking tape, make a funnel of tape around the cable housing large enough to contain a teaspoonful of y'er favorite rhino smegma. (In the case of the Guzzi, I use Redline Shockproof Heavy.) On a warm day she'll swallow it down PDQ. On a cooler day, give 'er a squirt and go pester y'er lovely bride until she throws you out. When you return, button 'er up, and Bob's y'er Uncle. The excess lube will eventually make its way into the trans, where it'll do what trans lube does.

 

Assuming you have no unnecessary cable kinkage, this'll give it & the worm drive (if you have one) a long & happy life.

 

Have fun.

[Greg Field]

Bill:

 

The cable is super-easy to install if you thread on the trans end before trying to route the cble under the throttle bodies. "swing" the bend outward, thread on the collar, route the cable, install the speedo end, and then fully tighten the trans end.

[Bill Hagan]

Thank you both.

 

Given the "hep" I got in the missing-fastener post http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...ic=8923&hl= >, I was a bit nervous reading through your replies. Had to read 'em twice to ensure no hidden tricks.

 

Really, thanks. I'll get to both of those tasks and some more on Sunday, and hope I can get the fractured pipes welded in time to ride the Ballabio again before Atlanta freezes over.

[mike wilson]

I've always used the same technique when lubing speedo cables. Detach the cable at the instrument and clip it onto something to hold it vertical with a clothes pin or equivalent. Using masking tape, make a funnel of tape around the cable housing large enough to contain a teaspoonful of y'er favorite rhino smegma. (In the case of the Guzzi, I use Redline Shockproof Heavy.) On a warm day she'll swallow it down PDQ. On a cooler day, give 'er a squirt and go pester y'er lovely bride until she throws you out. When you return, button 'er up, and Bob's y'er Uncle. The excess lube will eventually make its way into the trans, where it'll do what trans lube does.

 

I use that technique for lubing control cables. After a very messy, expensive and untimely demise of a recently refurbished chronometric speedo, I only use a light coating of grease on speedo/tacho cables. The oil I used to soak it had been (as far as I can tell) "archimedean screwed" up the cable and into the instrument, where it spread, yea, even unto the face of the instrument. Took a while but it got there. Of course, if the spiral faces the other way, it will help to keep lubricant _out_ of the instrument.

[belfastguzzi]

"archimedean screwed" up the cable

Of course, if the spiral faces the other way, it will help to keep lubricant _out_ of the instrument.

My experience is that lube comes 'down and out'. I took measures to stop it working out the bottom end.

[Guest ratchethack]

My experience is that lube comes 'down and out'.

That's what I've found also, BFG. FWIW, I had a similar "contamination" problem decades ago, but this was with one o' my favorite English auto-anachronisms, the venerable and lovable MGBGT. The Smiths clock would get fouled by cable lube. I note that the cable on the MG entered the instrument horizontally. I have yet to find ANY evidence of the Guzzi speedo cable lube climbing straight up vertically past what appears to be a ferrule/gizmo at the instrument head. This design appears to've been worked out for the purpose of preventing lube contamination. Nor have I ever read on any Guzzi Forum about any problem here. IIRC, the Archimedian screw effect of the cable works to migrate lube downward in any case.

 

I figure wot goes down and away into the trans needs replacement to give a long service life to the cable, but wot do I know, I'm an obsessive to the point of compulsive Guzzichondriac.

[Guest Nogbad]

Whether you need to lube a cable depends on its type. Modern nylon sleeved outers should not be lubed at all. The inner nylon tube in which the cable runs is lubed with compatible grease when the cable is made and no further lube is necessary. Application of the wrong type of oil can swell the nylon and cause the cable to bind. So willy nilly application of oil is not always the best approach.

 

For "conventional" cables where the outer is steel and runs directly against the steel cable lube is obviously required. However, if the cable is over generously oiled and the oil gets up into the delicate instrument, this is clearly bad news, and it does happen.

 

The ideal lube for instrument cables is graphite powder applied to the cable before it is threaded into the sheath. If that can't be done, graphited oil is good, but the cable should be hung after application to allow the excess to run out.

 

IMHO redline shockproof heavy is much too thick for a weeny turning cable driving an insignificant load and probably adds more resistance than it removes, loading up the drive gears. Try it, compare a cleaned and graphited cable with one marinated in gear oil.

 

But hey, Hackette belongs to the "marinated in magic elixir" school of Guzzichondria and probably hangs his bike in a tank of the aforementioned Redline Shockproof Heavy over the winter.

[big J]

I use that technique for lubing control cables. After a very messy, expensive and untimely demise of a recently refurbished chronometric speedo, I only use a light coating of grease on speedo/tacho cables. The oil I used to soak it had been (as far as I can tell) "archimedean screwed" up the cable and into the instrument, where it spread, yea, even unto the face of the instrument. Took a while but it got there. Of course, if the spiral faces the other way, it will help to keep lubricant _out_ of the instrument.

 

Yep,same thing happened to me.An old fella I used to know(one of those old guys who've fixed everything and can repair a broken cylinder head with a bent teaspoon and some polyfilla) told me never to lube a speedo cable with oil for that very reason..A very light grease of the inner was all.He said that the oil would also react with the inner and make it swell,causing failure.

I dunno,but he knew his stuff,that old guy.Now sadly gone.

 

BTW,I love chronometrics.

[Guest ratchethack]

Whether you need to lube a cable depends on its type. Modern nylon sleeved outers should not be lubed at all. The inner nylon tube in which the cable runs is lubed with compatible grease when the cable is made and no further lube is necessary. Application of the wrong type of oil can swell the nylon and cause the cable to bind. So willy nilly application of oil is not always the best approach.

Well now! Willy nilly is it?! Leave us take just a moment to see about Willy Nilly!

 

Sir Nobgad! As Official Forum Founder of the Nobgad School of Guzzi Negligence, the solemn edifice of which seems to be (paraphrased directly from y'erself on another thread): "Following the Guzzi Recommended Service Schedule is Extreme Guzzichondria!", I find I must now file a complaint!

 

I struggle mightily with y'er curriculum here anon, Schoolmaster Nobgad!

 

In the words of y'er fellow countryman, Bill [i think you know who], "Methinks thou protesteth too much!"

 

Having owned and 100% maintained a dozen moto's, I've accumulated a large number of left-over spare cables of various marques, all coiled up together in my home shop in one big "cable wreath" hanging up high on the wall. Some are nylon or teflon lined and some are not. I've never seen a nylon or teflon speedo drive cable, and I've never put any kind of lube on a nylon or teflon cable, but the ones I have are the pull-type for clutch, throttle, and brake, and that's not important now.

 

The Guzzi speedo drive cable that came with my worm-drive unit is NOT a teflon or nylon lined cable. Nor was the one that came with my Pal's '04 LM without the worm-drive unit. The housing of both is the steel coil type, and the cable runs metal-on-metal. This kind of cable is designed for lubrication and requires it for a normal service life. My Pal's speedo cable broke at 8K miles. It had not been lubed since it left Mandello. Mine has never broken. It's always been lubed with trans gear lube.

IMHO redline shockproof heavy is much too thick for a weeny turning cable driving an insignificant load and probably adds more resistance than it removes, loading up the drive gears. Try it, compare a cleaned and graphited cable with one marinated in gear oil.

Now I've used everything from 30 wt., to graphite, to wheel bearing grease, to heavy dino gear lube, and probably a few other specialty lubes on speedo and mechanical tach drive cables. I wouldn't go so far as to say that any of 'em were ever WRONG. Certainly none of 'em ever added resistance - even something as thick as wheel bearing grease at well below freezing temperatures (by specific design of the lubricant)!

 

What I WOULD suggest is that letting an unlined speedo cable go DRY is a near-certain recipe for relatively rapid cable failure compared to lubricating it properly -- especially when the cable tends to flush its lube downhill into the trans over time, as in the V11 Guzzi.

 

Now this concept may not fit the "Sweating the Assets" philosophy of the Nobgad School of Guzzi Negligence, my dearest Nob, but what of our Pal, Bill Hagan? He of the previously posted photo of heavily corrosion-encrusted speedo drive?? What have you led our friend and Guzzista, Cognoscenti, and Proud Proprietor of Garage Mahalo (aka Molto Bene Meccanicca) to think??

 

To suggest that Redline Shockproof Heavy may somehow load up the cable and/or drive with excessive resistance - thereby conjuring up the dreadful spectre of neuritis and neuralgia! - is nothing short of extraordinary!

 

Now the Nobgad School of Guzzi Negligence has a POWERFUL scolarship lure for Freshman students: Students of NSGN are evidently required to take Justifications 101 to learn such "convincing" notions as, "The speedo cable could swell and have an aneurism if I lube it." So as to better master the basis of the School's Primary Tenet - "Just Ride Until it Breaks, Then Fix it." After all, who wants to WORK on their Guzzi sooner at the time of one's choosing at home or shop rather than at "surprise time" later on the road?!?! Funny thing is, I seem to find graduates of y'er school posting here occasionally with many kinds of complaints, including tales of roadside woe and towing fees.

 

In contrast, my maintenance philosophy, "Maximum Up-time" has yielded results of an entirely different nature. My Guzzi has always run like a Champ. It's like clockwork, and she's never let me down. The biggest "surprise" I've ever had on the road was a Veglia tach that let go. As it turned out, this was not a maintenance item. The instrument itself had failed, it was found irreparable by the Pro's, and it was replaced.

 

Does anyone s'pose there could be any correlation between proper maintenance and up-time??

 

Many V11 owners in fact don't even seem to know that there's any maintenance to do on a Guzzi beyond changing oil and adjusting valves (if they even acknowledge this much) -- let alone know enough to refer to a factory service schedule or service manual. Just speculating, but I figure not owning a manual would tend to encourage this. I reckon it's the "out of sight, out of mind" theory from the NSGN curriculum?!?! I suspect that many NSGN graduates' Guzzis are sold off with low mileage amidst a flurry of complaints without ever having given much of any thought to maintenance beyond this. Perhaps many of the NSGN alumni contend that a Guzzi is really just another garden variety moto appliance that breaks down more often?!?! Ah, but who am I to fault this thinking?? I'm merely an obsessive Guzzichondriac. . . .

 

The needle on my amaze-o-meter leaves its usual neighborhood of late in the higher registers, and now hammers its pointy little head repeatedly against the limit peg!!!

 

Bill, I don't know about you, but I don't want graphite in my transmission. In fact, I don't want much of anything other than trans lube in there. Whatever y'er choice of trans lube may be, (I've used both synth. 75w90 and RLSH), either one seems to have properties of lubricity and cling strength to qualify as "good a lube as any" for the speedo cable. IMHO, RLSH is likely better than some others as a speedo cable lube for many reasons, not the least of which is its friction modifiers and uniquely high cling strength, which by my experience, seems to keep it from running out of the cable prematurely. I've got 30K miles on mine, having used first one trans lube above, then the other. The cable and drive spin as freely as can be imagined, and I don't hesitate to recommend it.

 

BTW - this is just me, and I mean no offense -- but I hope never to find corrosion the likes o' that (in y'er photo) on my beloved Guzzi. If you periodically use trans lube - or some other lube for that matter - on y'er cable as I've suggested, this will virtually guarantee that such a thing will never happen. Mine looks like new.

 

NOTE: As with many other procedures that I maintain on my Guzzi, like many other maintenance items I consider wise to perform, nowhere in the Guzzi Service Schedule or Service Manual is speedo cable lubrication to be found. I reckon since lubing it is OFF THE CHARTS as well as NOT IN THE BOOK, this makes me an obsessive to the point of compulsive Guzzichondriac.

 

Guilty as charged. . . . .

[Guest Nogbad]

Well now! Willy nilly is it?! Leave us take just a moment to see about Willy Nilly!

 

Sir Nobgad! As Official Forum Founder of the Nobgad School of Guzzi Negligence,

 

I think you actually mean "neglect". Me, I say its benign neglect.

 

I struggle mightily with y'er curriculum here anon, Schoolmaster Nobgad!

 

I fall from my chair in shock. Me a schoolmarm! On the other hand YOU are the constant poster of vast pseudo-religious conspiracy tracts on subjects ranging from the justification of armed menace to the worldwide plans of middle aged hippie greens to ruin the world economy. If anyone is guilty of self-righteous proselytising on all manner of subjects it's you!

 

In the words of y'er fellow countryman, Bill [i think you know who], "Methinks thou protesteth too much!"

 

What?

 

Having owned and 100% maintained a dozen moto's, I've accumulated a large number of left-over spare cables of various marques, all coiled up together in my home shop in one big "cable wreath" hanging up high on the wall. Some are nylon or teflon lined and some are not. I've never seen a nylon or teflon speedo drive cable, and I've never put any kind of lube on a nylon or teflon cable, but the ones I have are the pull-type for clutch, throttle, and brake, and that's not important now.

 

"Owned and 500% overmaintained" would be more honest

 

The Guzzi speedo drive cable that came with my worm-drive unit is NOT a teflon or nylon lined cable. Nor was the one that came with my Pal's '04 LM without the worm-drive unit. The housing of both is the steel coil type, and the cable runs metal-on-metal. This kind of cable is designed for lubrication and requires it for a normal service life. My Pal's speedo cable broke at 8K miles. It had not been lubed since it left Mandello. Mine has never broken. It's always been lubed with trans gear lube.

 

One day the sticky horrible gear lube may reach the speedo head, but it clearly will never reach your head.

 

Now I've used everything from 30 wt., to graphite, to wheel bearing grease, to heavy dino gear lube, and probably a few other specialty lubes on speedo and mechanical tach drive cables. I wouldn't go so far as to say that any of 'em were ever WRONG. Certainly none of 'em ever added resistance - even something as thick as wheel bearing grease at well below freezing temperatures (by specific design of the lubricant)!

 

Well, you are consistent. Obviously, as the resident expert on everything maintenance, if YOU have used it, it must by definition be the right thing to use. I beg forgiveness at the oracle

 

What I WOULD suggest is that letting an unlined speedo cable go DRY is a near-certain recipe for relatively rapid cable failure compared to lubricating it properly -- especially when the cable tends to flush its lube downhill into the trans over time, as in the V11 Guzzi.

 

Where, pray tell, did I ever recommend running a steel to steel cable dry? I didn't. All I said was that RLSH was not the fluid for the purpose, an assertion I stand behind regardless of how His Reverence Ratchet the Bishop of the Church of Latter Day Spannerhacks may opine.

 

Now this concept may not fit the "Sweating the Assets" philosophy of the Nobgad School of Guzzi Negligence, my dearest Nob, but what of our Pal, Bill Hagan? He of the previously posted photo of heavily corrosion-encrusted speedo drive?? What have you led our friend and Guzzista, Cognoscenti, and Proud Proprietor of Garage Mahalo (aka Molto Bene Meccanicca) to think??

 

Do you mean the cable? Or the drive box at the tranny end? I don't think anyone would argue with a smear of lube of the right type, but when it comes down to it, where is the problem. So a part goes tits up from time to time. It's a machine. Replace the part when it goes wrong and enjoy the bike in the meantime: It's depreciating, it isn't an investment or some antique wristwatch. Its an old motorbike! Ride it, don't waste your cash modifying it or your mental health worrying about which bit might have worn down by a millionth of an inch last week.

 

To suggest that Redline Shockproof Heavy may somehow load up the cable and/or drive with excessive resistance - thereby conjuring up the dreadful spectre of neuritis and neuralgia! - is nothing short of extraordinary!

 

Not extraordinary at all. You fill a speedo cable with RLSH and then turn the inner. Then wash it out and try it with a smear of light graphited oil.

 

Now the Nobgad School of Guzzi Negligence has a POWERFUL scolarship lure for Freshman students: Students of NSGN are evidently required to take Justifications 101 to learn such "convincing" notions as, "The speedo cable could swell and have an aneurism if I lube it." So as to better master the basis of the School's Primary Tenet - "Just Ride Until it Breaks, Then Fix it." After all, who wants to WORK on their Guzzi sooner at the time of one's choosing at home or shop rather than at "surprise time" later on the road?!?! Funny thing is, I seem to find graduates of y'er school posting here occasionally with many kinds of complaints, including tales of roadside woe and towing fees.

 

I think you will find most of these incidents are due to failures that would not have been picked up by normal maintenance. Although, I give you that the Hatchetrack school of anal bike blueprinting might well prevent one breakdown every 1000 years or so.

 

In contrast, my maintenance philosophy, "Maximum Up-time" has yielded results of an entirely different nature. My Guzzi has always run like a Champ. It's like clockwork, and she's never let me down. The biggest "surprise" I've ever had on the road was a Veglia tach that let go. As it turned out, this was not a maintenance item. The instrument itself had failed, it was found irreparable by the Pro's, and it was replaced.

 

Ah yes! The Hackretch philosophy of ""Maximum up on the bench time". I'm not surprised your bike runs like a Chimp with the amount of monkeying about you do with it.

 

I'm merely an obsessive Guzzichondriac. . . .

 

What sweet light through yonder window comes.

 

The needle on my amaze-o-meter leaves its usual neighborhood of late in the higher registers, and now hammers its pointy little head repeatedly against the limit peg!!!

 

That's due to a failure of your empathactuator which prevents your seeing any point of view other than your own. (I deleted the rest of the section - too boring)

 

Bill, I don't know about you, but I don't want graphite in my transmission. In fact, I don't want much of anything other than trans lube in there. Whatever y'er choice of trans lube may be, (I've used both synth. 75w90 and RLSH), either one seems to have properties of lubricity and cling strength to qualify as "good a lube as any" for the speedo cable. IMHO, RLSH is likely better than some others as a speedo cable lube for many reasons, not the least of which is its friction modifiers and uniquely high cling strength, which by my experience, seems to keep it from running out of the cable prematurely. I've got 30K miles on mine, having used first one trans lube above, then the other. The cable and drive spin as freely as can be imagined, and I don't hesitate to recommend it.

 

I don't think a tiny bit of graphited machine oil meandering into the tranny would do anything like as much harm as a tiny bit of RLSH treacle getting into the speedo head. Take no notice Bill, the man's deranged.

 

BTW - this is just me, and I mean no offense -- but I hope never to find corrosion the likes o' that (in y'er photo) on my beloved Guzzi. If you periodically use trans lube - or some other lube for that matter - on y'er cable as I've suggested, this will virtually guarantee that such a thing will never happen. Mine looks like new.

 

Yeah! look out folks - letting your Guzzi get rusty or dirty is a SIN. Don't you understand - you must be punished by the Inquisition.

 

NOTE: As with many other procedures that I maintain on my Guzzi, like many other maintenance items I consider wise to perform, nowhere in the Guzzi Service Schedule or Service Manual is speedo cable lubrication to be found. I reckon since lubing it is OFF THE CHARTS as well as NOT IN THE BOOK, this makes me an obsessive to the point of compulsive Guzzichondriac.

 

Guilty as charged. . . . .

 

Yep, completely deranged to the point of madness. Couldn't agree more.

[Alex-Corsa]

 

Is that normal? Am I supposed to be lubing this thing (cable, etc.)? If so, how?

 

 

The way I lube the cable is :

I melt (heat up in a old pan) some grease and with an injection (without the needle of cource) I inject multiple times into the cable (while is not installed on to the bike). I also pour some gear oil in the same way afterwards. Hold (always)the cable upright and move it a bit around till I make sure all it 's inside surface has been lubed well.

That's the way I do it. Works O.K. for the last 40K km since I last did it. I wonder if I should lube it again precausionary once more.

[badmotogoozer]

All I've ever used is a couple drops of household 3in1 light oil in my cables. The only cable I've ever had break was a new tach cable on the duc that I must have installed wrong because it tore itself apart when I started the engine. Oh and a rear brake cable that tore itself out of the end stop (wheel end).

 

I certainly wouldn't ever want RLSH to get up in the guage. Toasted for sure.

 

cheers,

 

Rj

[Paul Minnaert]

besides lubing, the routing is important. if it's in it's place, first mount the top. Then turn the innerpart on the bottom side to feel it goes very easy. If not, see where it's not as smooth as it can be, and correct. Maybe the part in the angle drive on the tacho needs adjustment?