How to go from hero to zero in 3 dyno runs

[Guest Nogbad]

Nog:

 

Reliability of these bikes is fine. We see a lot of Guzzis at Moto Intl. Some Guzzi shops may not service six V11s in a summer. We service that many a day sometimes. One day we had five green 2000 Sports here. That was a purty sight. The numbers we see ensure that we see more problems than other individuals and shops see. We sell 20 percent of the Guzzis sold in the US and probably get an equal percentage of the service business. This is why I frequently am able to warn you about things so many others scoff at 'cause they've never seen them, yet.

 

Mine has never given me moment's bother. Not mechanical or electrical. I have new relays sitting in my shed after succumbing to guzzichondria shortly after joining the boards. The "crap" Siemens ones are still working fine. Not only that, I never ever have charged the battery in 3 years of ownership and the *original* Spark 500 Guzzi factory battery is still working perfectly, and it is now almost 6 years old. The only thing I have replaced is the oil seal behind the alternator and 2 lots of tyres.

 

For 2 of those years I used the bike rain or shine to go to work, and unlike my previous SV650 the Guzzi never threatened to conk in the outside lane of the M25 whenever there was a hint of humidity in the air.

 

So - my experience is that MY PARTICULAR V11 is as reliable as any other decent modern motorcycle out there.

 

It's THIS BOARD and one person in particular who I shall not identify, that promulgates these guzzichondriac rumours of serious unreliability and the constant need to marinate the bike in Redline shockproof heavy between visits to the motorcycle equivalent of the psychiatric ward to get help with the next "weird noise". As I keep saying, it's just an old bike, better than most other old bikes and worse than some but not by much. It is perfectly functional as an everyday, all purpose bike, as Martin can testify, and as far as I am concerned, more problems are caused by owners' attempts to "improve" and "set up" their bikes than would occur if they were left well alone and simply ridden from service to service.

 

[pete roper]

If you look at Greg's post on the definitive proof of pick-up exposure under hard acceleration it is pretty plain that it does happen. If you're running zero oil pressure then damage will start to occur immediately. This doesn't mean that the big ends will instantly go out to lunch but they WILL be damaged.

 

In the case of the machine that started this thread my guess is that it was exposing the pick up during hard acceleration. Whether the light came on or not is a moot point. The switch that operates the light opens at some feeble pressure, less than five PSI I'd guess, so it's quit possible for the pressure to drop dangerously low without the light coming on. Add in the fact also that there will be a time delay, not only for the switch itself to close but for the globe to start to incandese (Sp.) and the rider to notice it. I know that in bright weather it's quite hard to see some lights on the dash and if you're accelerating HARD in the lower gears I know of few peple who are peering at their dashboard while they do it .

 

So, probably there was some shell damage already. While on the dyno the pick-up exposure problem as was noted by someone else above, won't be an issue, BUT running the engine at High RPM/High Load on a dyno IS stresfull and my guess is that this was simply the 'Straw that broke the camel's back.'.

 

I noted that when I installed the dipstick while I was installing the sloppage sheet prototype on a Centauro that the level indicating 'Full' was a good 10-15mm low with the dipstick screwed in. I didn't think to check with the dipstick resting on the threads but this would have to be a *better* indicator of the correct level.

 

Having said that I think that the 'Sloppage Sheet' is probably the best solution on offer an used in conjunction with ensuring the oil level is correct, (ie, just below the level of the plate when installed.) I am pretty certain that it will prevent any recurrence of the pick up exposure. I may be a rat-bag but I don't consider myself to be a *complete* charlatan . I wouldn't of bothered making the wretched things if I didn't reckon they would work.

 

Anyway Greg has one which he's going to fit to his Coppa/Billybob when he has time and once that is done we will, hopefully have some sort of definitive answer as to whether my theory is correct. All I know is that the Proto as fitted to a customer's Centauro has caused no problems but I don't think he said he's ever seen the light come on apart from once early in his ownership when he'd let the oil drop way too low.

 

Pete

[Guest ratchethack]

It's THIS BOARD and one person in particular who I shall not identify, that promulgates these guzzichondriac rumours of serious unreliability and the constant need to marinate the bike in Redline shockproof heavy between visits to the motorcycle equivalent of the psychiatric ward to get help with the next "weird noise".

Why, Sir Nobgad! These are some serious charges! Whomever it is y'er referring to above is certainly psychotic and should be institutionalized. Let us call the men in the white coats and the butterfly nets without further delay!

 

PLEASE help us identify our quarry, lest this nutter lead someone astray!

 

Though many have posted about it, some even having sold their Guzzis after complaining here about it, I don't recall anyone spreading persistent rumours of serious unreliability recently -- or even non-serious rumors of unreliability, beyond mentioning what's been posted by others.

 

Nor do I recall any mention of a need to constantly marinate Guzzis in Redline, or references to any maintenance beyond that specified by the manufacturer, with the exception, of course, where not listed in the Guzzi manuals, of what is commonly accepted good maintenance practice on any motorcycle.

 

Nor, for that matter, do I recall any mention of, let alone obsession over "weird noises".

 

Could you help narrow down the source of these Willy Nilly delusions that now seem to threaten us all so very much?

 

I do recall a pretty good exposure recently of an apparent common mentality - a certain school of thought, as it were - that seems to uphold the notion (incredibly enough) that maintaining a Guzzi by the manufacturer's service schedule amounts to extremely delusional behavior.

 

I read about it here: http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...st&p=101073

 

Is THIS what y'er referring to?

 

Enquiring minds will have to discover what's going on here and take action immediately, lest there be an outbreak of Guzzi maintenance!! Of course, everyone knows that preventive maintenance of any kind is not only unnecessary, it's just wrong, it's stupid, the very suggestion of such a thing on this Forum seems to be threatening to those who don't -- or just won't -- do it!! -- and well, we just can't have that sort of thing getting started here, can we??

[luhbo]

What I'm missing in discussions like this is any correlation between all those "minor" faults like wrong dipstick markings, flashing oil-pressure lights and what ever more on one hand and the bigger faults like failed big ends, thrown off riders and so on.

 

All of the mentioned minor things could have caused bigger and biggest catastrophies, the question must be: did they cause them?

 

Pete for instance, your sheet is well engineered and surely will do what it should do. But is there any proof that any of the described damage would have been avoided if the bike was fitted with such a plate? Now, it's a very wellcome improvement, but is it really a necessesity? I doubt.

 

I can say the same what Nogbad said. I use my 63,000 km worn KR nearly every day in summer for commuting, 130 km each day. No structural problems so far! I bought the bike used. I don't know what the previous owner did to it and how he treated it.

 

Last weak I went to Mandello, about 600 miles one way. All I did as preparation was checking the tire pressure and whether I could see enough oil on the dipstick. Everything else had to work and so it did, of course.

 

So far the following components have failed:

 

- the original ECU, because it was handsoldered by the previous owner's shop. I did resolder the eeprom, it worked again, but I had switched over to Cliff's ECU in the meantime anyway.

 

- the TPS, a quality product that's used on HD also.

 

- Irregularities with the tach, as described somewhere else.

 

- one set of wheel bearings because of soaking the entire bike every week to cleaning solvent and high pressure water.

 

- the oil-pressure switch. It's been dead since 2 years. Now I had to replace it in Mandello because it became incontinent on the way down there. I could see the light flicker now, but what the feck, it doesn't

 

- horn holder strips.

 

- the electric gasoline switch, because I've always laid the tank on its wires.

 

- the crankcase vent hose, broken at the front knee.

 

- the starter engine trew 2 of its magnetos off. Actually it works mags reglued, as good as new.

 

- intake rubbers, probably overtightened. They failed exactly at the clamps.

 

I think that's all.

 

First battery (Hawker), first OEM relais, first engine parts, no measurable oil consumption.

 

To summ it up another story at last. A friend of me runs a businness selling scooters to the "pimply faced youthfull". The scooters are coming from Korea I think, are cheap and reliable. Every now and then those fellows pop up in front of his shop and complain about what crap he has sold to them. In the meantime he is so sure about what has happened that he doesn't even have to look at them to know what it was: "Didn't I tell you about this red light? It's the oil reserve light. When it came on you better had refilled the oil. Now don't complain, I make you an offer ...." It's great times nowadays, some parents pay for nearly everything actually. Because he takes his time for their blokes. But that's indeed another story.

[pete roper]

 

Pete for instance, your sheet is well engineered and surely will do what it should do. But is there any proof that any of the described damage would have been avoided if the bike was fitted with such a plate? Now, it's a very wellcome improvement, but is it really a necessesity? I doubt.

 

 

What will cause bearing damage to an engine that has been assembled correctly? Inadequate quantity or pressure of oil, that's what.

 

Greg went to the trouble of fitting a guage to his bike and found that under hard acceleration the oil pressure dropped to next to nothing, if not an indicated ZERO, when accelerating into freeway traffic. That to me would indicate that there IS a problem. As would the factory blurb on the Breva/Griso motor which states that one of the many improvements to the engine is a complete re-design of the sump and oil delivery system TO AVOID LOSS OF PRESSURE . Even the factory admitted obliquely that there was a problem with the 'Broad Sump' design!

 

If the bearings aren't getting oil they WILL die. No if's or but's.

 

The reason why it's a problem on the 'Broad Sump' models is because the pick-up is quite far forward, the sump is 'Broad' but not as 'Deep' as earlier sumps and they also had a more rearward pick-up AND it was right at the bottom of the sump rather than being a pipe poking down towards the bottom of the shallower sump. Under hard acceleration the oil WILL slop rearwards. Under certain conditions, I'd guess if you are going uphill and leaning to the left it would be worst, the pick up is more likely to be exposed. If the pick-up is exposed then the low pressure area in the pump will be filled with air rather than oil and air is a pretty crap lubricant for a plain bearing.

 

So, is the plate a necessity? If you don't accererate uphill to the left, hard, and always are scrupulous about slightly over-filling your sump then no, it probably isn't. If you DO do any of those things then there is a risk of damage.

 

I'm not, and never have said that if you don't fit a sloppage plate your engine will immediately melt into a lump of smoking slag. I'm NOT 'forcing' people to buy them! It's simply a choice that is now open to people.

 

Basically though, if I owned a 'Broad Sump' model I'd be fitting one because I reckon that spending a small amount of money on such a thing is a worthwhile insurance against torching a crank! Even buying at 'trade' from Italy I can assure you that a V11 crank is NOT a cheap item! I know, I wanted one for a race bike and couldn't afford it!

 

Pete

[luhbo]

Pete, I know all that and I personally do most appreciate all what you've posted here or elsewhere.

 

It's again the same thing:

 

My question was:

 

"Is there any proof that any of the described damage would have been avoided if the bike was fitted with such a plate?"

 

The V11 is not as bad as it may look if one reads in this forum. Some people, some guests do.

 

Its definitely not true that one can't accelerate this bike without ruining its engine!

 

And, pertaining on other posts, it doesn't eat tach snakes if you don't soak them in gear lubricant.

 

Or, it does not throw you off because you have a not european body mass index.

 

Reading the average posting sometimes makes me think those people own a different bike as what I and "my buddies" own.

 

Maybe this can make clearer what I want to say: one of my favorite posters wrote in another forum that he had improved his front fork by cutting down the spanner tubes for about 2 (or was it even 4?) centimeters and, to make things perfect, after that let the legs look out for another 2cm.

You read such, believe such, do it and then ground your bike so heavily at the next bend that you may probably see all this forum expert stuff in a different way. If you're unlucky you have some weeks time to think about your improvements, or better if you're lucky.

[Guest Nogbad]

Why, Sir Nobgad! These are some serious charges! Whomever it is y'er referring to above is certainly psychotic and should be institutionalized. Let us call the men in the white coats and the butterfly nets without further delay!

 

PLEASE help us identify our quarry, lest this nutter lead someone astray!

 

Though many have posted about it, some even having sold their Guzzis after complaining here about it, I don't recall anyone spreading persistent rumours of serious unreliability recently -- or even non-serious rumors of unreliability, beyond mentioning what's been posted by others.

 

Nor do I recall any mention of a need to constantly marinate Guzzis in Redline, or references to any maintenance beyond that specified by the manufacturer, with the exception, of course, where not listed in the Guzzi manuals, of what is commonly accepted good maintenance practice on any motorcycle.

 

Nor, for that matter, do I recall any mention of, let alone obsession over "weird noises".

 

Could you help narrow down the source of these Willy Nilly delusions that now seem to threaten us all so very much?

 

I do recall a pretty good exposure recently of an apparent common mentality - a certain school of thought, as it were - that seems to uphold the notion (incredibly enough) that maintaining a Guzzi by the manufacturer's service schedule amounts to extremely delusional behavior.

 

I read about it here: http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...st&p=101073

 

Is THIS what y'er referring to?

 

Enquiring minds will have to discover what's going on here and take action immediately, lest there be an outbreak of Guzzi maintenance!! Of course, everyone knows that preventive maintenance of any kind is not only unnecessary, it's just wrong, it's stupid, the very suggestion of such a thing on this Forum seems to be somehow threatening to those who don't -- or just won't -- do it!! -- and well, we just can't have that sort of thing getting started here, can we??

 

Thanks for the link. I missed your entertaining ranting.

 

My V11 isn't unreliable at all. Never has been, probably never will be. Not that I think the delicate gears of my speedo really need a dose of Redline maple syrup to help them to function. Same as I don't think my cush drive rubbers need to be rotted with hydrocarbon oil.

 

Gas and go Hacker, gas and go.

 

Dunno why you bit with such enthusiasm...... they say if the cap fits and all that.....

[Guest Mattress]

 

In the case of the machine that started this thread my guess is that it was exposing the pick up during hard acceleration. Whether the light came on or not is a moot point. The switch that operates the light opens at some feeble pressure, less than five PSI I'd guess, so it's quit possible for the pressure to drop dangerously low without the light coming on. Pete

 

 

Thats why I asked if it was a switch or a transducer read by the ECU. A switch will have a set point and as you state, whatever that value is, you don't want to be near it.

 

A transducer would provide the ECU with more information allowing a more sophisticated control strategy.

 

The v8 diesel (200 - 275 HP) we put in medium duty trucks uses a transducer and the driver has a gauge to look at. We have de-rating strategy algorythms that are quite sophisticated.

 

That same diesel core design is sold to Ford, but with 325 HP. Ford requires a switch 'cause its cheaper. The driver sees a light, or a really tricky Ford move where they put a gauge on the dash, but the needle never moves from the middle. No derating strategy here, to expensive too. They'd rather do engine replacements when your aftermarket chip blows it up. Pretty nice for a $40k+ truck, eh?

 

That and the way they treat their suppliers, is why I won't buy a new ford.

[Guest ratchethack]

My V11 isn't unreliable at all. Never has been, probably never will be. Not that I think the delicate gears of my speedo really need a dose of Redline maple syrup to help them to function. Same as I don't think my cush drive rubbers need to be rotted with hydrocarbon oil.

 

Gas and go Hacker, gas and go.

 

Dunno why you bit with such enthusiasm...... they say if the cap fits and all that.....

I'm pleased, Sir Nobgad, that y'er Guzzi isn't unreliable. Just how long into perpetuity do you expect y'er Guzzi to run as designed without the recommended maintenance?. . . .

 

I've never experienced a trace of lube in my speedo or rot on my cush drive blocks, though I've done the recommended maintenance of the Pro's on both. I know this is wrong, but I just can't help meself. . . . . . It must be a sickness. . . . .

 

Have you ever seen or heard of a speedo, speedo cable, or cush drive failure anywhere as a result of the recommended maintenance of the Pro's?

 

Enquiring minds just gotta know. . . .

 

I've read many posts both here and on other Forums of what happens when you don't -- and this is just me, but I don't want that. . . . . .ah, but then I'm merely a deluded Guzzichondriac and I like to waste my time doing the recommended maintenance -- and then some. How droll of me, eh? How self-serving. How unbearably, insufferably self-righteous!!!!

[badmotogoozer]

How droll of me, eh? How self-serving. How unbearably, insufferably self-righteous!!!!

 

We've come to expect nothing less from you.

 

You know, I kinda like Dr. Ratchet. His posts are usually informative, and represent services he has carried out himself. Most of the time presented fairly humbly. I don't always agree, but I respect him.

 

That other guy though, Mr. Hack, is a self-righteous prick. Constantly talking down to anyone who doesn't see things his way, and then gets a burr in his britches when someone else does the same to him. This guy I don't much care for.

 

Dr. Ratchet, Mr. Hack. Hard to believe they are the same guy sometimes.

 

Can we go back to the hero portion of this topic and leave the "zero" crap behind?

 

Rj

[Guest Nogbad]

 

I've read many posts both here and on other Forums of what happens when you don't -- and this is just me, but I don't want that. . . . . .ah, but then I'm merely a deluded Guzzichondriac and I like to waste my time doing the recommended maintenance -- and then some. How droll of me, eh? How self-serving. How unbearably, insufferably self-righteous!!!!

 

You can read anything on a forum.

 

Quite true, quite true. I like that last bit, there really seems to be hope for you sometimes. Half the battle is to recognise you have a problem.

 

You are mistaken if you think I don't maintain my Guzzi, I do. I do the things the manual recommends at the intervals it recommends, either myself or by paying one of the many local Guzzi shops in the London area. I just don't obsess about it or constantly think I should be turning it into something it was never intended to be.

 

Would a holiday on Remulac help?

[Guest ratchethack]

We've come to expect nothing less from you.

. . . .Mr. Hack, is a self-righteous prick. Constantly talking down to anyone who doesn't see things his way, and then gets a burr in his britches when someone else does the same to him. This guy I don't much care for.

 

Dr. Ratchet, Mr. Hack. Hard to believe they are the same guy sometimes.

 

Can we go back to the hero portion of this topic and leave the "zero" crap behind?

 

Rj

Well now -- So nice of you to grace the Forum with one of y'er patented "Drive-by's" by barging a thread where y'er not involved and dumping y'er traditional load of negativity, Ryan. In all my years on this Forum, I've never seen anyone but you do this, have you? It's certainly quite a distinction. I think of it as "piling on" behavior. But in any case, I'm SO pleased to know that you find my posts so uniquely inspirational.

[jrt]

Can we go back to the hero portion of this topic and leave the "zero" crap behind?

 

+1

I like's ya both, but Huey is asking for help- let's give him some. Ya'll take your arguments over to global warming (shudder).

[Guest Huey130]

So.............

 

We tell customer "Sure we can rebuild it but we'll make no promises that it won't do it again because of a known oiling issue in some bikes"?

 

Is kinda the gist I'm getting....

[badmotogoozer]

Well now -- So nice of you to grace the Forum with one of y'er patented "Drive-by's" by barging a thread where y'er not involved and dumping y'er traditional load of negativity, Ryan. In all my years on this Forum, I've never seen anyone but you do this, have you? It's certainly quite a distinction. I think of it as "piling on" behavior. But in any case, I'm SO pleased to know that you find my posts so uniquely inspirational.

 

Well, I am involved in this thread. I have posted in it. I have been reading it, but had nothing more to contribute until you and Noggers got at each other again. Distinction? How about you and Noggers bringing the same "maintenance vs. no maintenance" argument to ruin many threads where this is, at best, a side topic.

 

Dump a load of negativity? Look again close - there ARE some compliments in there. You have only elected to quote the negativity. This selective reading reinforces my belief that you only read the words you want to hear.

 

Piling on?? Please.

 

And I HAVE been inspired by some of your posts. I have just installed my Wilburs springs as per your instructions. I HAVE done more reading into your side of the argument WRT global warming. I HAVE read and considered your K&N study. I HAVE picked up many little tips and tricks from your posts.

 

Most appologies to you other listers. I won't post on this subject again.

 

Rj