How to go from hero to zero in 3 dyno runs

[Guest Vince]

A couple of years ago there was an incident at Eastern Creek Race circuit were an external oil filter came adrift on a near new MV at full noise down the straight,not pretty and the owner I believe is still at literation with the distributer,it happens,thats why racers safety wire stuff.

[Guest Gary Cheek]

A couple of years ago there was an incident at Eastern Creek Race circuit were an external oil filter came adrift on a near new MV at full noise down the straight,not pretty and the owner I believe is still at literation with the distributer,it happens,thats why racers safety wire stuff.

 

Many years back I worked in heavy machine repair ( huge mechanical presses) USI-Clearing's practice was to safety wire 100% on overhead items. Their reason was simple liability. They concluded they could not 100% rely on employees to tighten the parts they would 100% safety wire.They did only the overhead stuff because they didn't want the liability for something falling onto someone. The safety wire was also a seal of sorts in the event the customer tinkered with the machine. Safety wiring inspection was much easier to accomplish at that time than torque inspection.

Here at work we now use computer equipment to torque and record each fastener on pre-prototype vehicles and crash test vehicles. Every vehicle has a record of every fastener. When a problem occurs in testing they can now narrow down the source and verify if the design specs were met. I understand the same equipment is now used on many production lines as well.

 

In the case of racing where we do things in somewhat a hectic manner at times, the sanctioning bodies need to protect others from the mistakes made by some. Very understandable and preferred way to do things. In the case of this guys mishap. His work is to prove the filter was as it came and had never been removed. Or prove a defect in the engine or filter itself. If he can do that is issue with MV or the filter maker. This is not a criminal case so the standard is much different.Wish him the best if he proves the source.Hope for a miserable failure if his suit is frivolous.

 

Two years ago I bought a Scura from Moto Guzzi. It was bought back by them from the original owner. The Scura had just lost it's second engine in 4000 miles. Both engines experienced rod bearing failures . Two different engines. I managed to locate the original owner when I found his registration in the tool kit. He seemed to be a rather spirited rider so I chalked up the first failure as likely just hard riding on a fresh engine, perhaps low on oil. He said the second engine lasted abot 1200 miles and he was riding it very easy this time. The engine was running along just fine and the knocking came on. He shut down at once and towed the bike to the shop. Rather than another engine Guzzi graciously bought the bike back without a whimper.

 

Went through the bottom end and wound up going top the first U.size rods,along with a pair of Carillos and balancing. The mains were excellent as was the rest of the engine. Main suspect for the engine #2 was the oil cooler. The shop may have neglected replacing it and in so doing contaminated the fresh engine . Playing it safe we replaced the cooler.Drained that cooler into a clean pan through a fine white strainer. Could have used a fish net instead. The goop that was inside was sickening! Passed the cooler along to a person who agreed to flush completely before using. Sure hope that was enough!

The sloppage tray may well have made this guy's first experience with Guzzi a happy one, changing the cooler may have given engine #2 a chance.

Engine # 2 1/2 now has enjoyed 30,000 very happy miles. Maybe a sloppage tray is in order though. Next time the pan is off I will make a dimensioned drawing and laser burn a few sloppage trays.

 

 

Peace baby..

[pete roper]

Engine # 2 1/2 now has enjoyed 30,000 very happy miles. Maybe a sloppage tray is in order though. Next time the pan is off I will make a dimensioned drawing and laser burn a few sloppage trays.

 

 

Peace baby..

 

Yup, or you could perhaps buy a few off me and take into account the time and effort I went to to design the thing?

 

Yup, I have no copyright or patent, you can do it. Perhaps that makes me a sucker, but I have to admit I'll be a bit pissed off if you take my work and plagiarise it. My price is, after all, scarecely exhorbitant.

 

Pete

[Guest Gary Cheek]

Yup, or you could perhaps buy a few off me and take into account the time and effort I went to to design the thing?

 

Yup, I have no copyright or patent, you can do it. Perhaps that makes me a sucker, but I have to admit I'll be a bit pissed off if you take my work and plagiarise it. My price is, after all, scarecely exhorbitant.

 

Pete

 

Copy cats often start by buying a sample. A copy was never the intent.

Pete.

Surely would never copy anyone's work and sell them off .If they were not different there would be NO REASON for me to bother making them.

How many people have made outright copies of Guzzi factory tools? How many have seen a different approach and designed their own? There are many iterations of the hex key to remove the filter cover. Usually when I see fit to make something it is from a desire to do it differently.

Please don't take offense but yes, you did the work on you plate. Neither the principle nor the practice are new to wet sump engines.

When I say a few I mean a few DIFFERENT designs. Different from yours and from each other. AKA original design work.For instance, avoiding the extra gasket joint used in the sandwich approach by a DIFFERENT DESIGN, among other differences. Testing effectiveness with a strip chart recording of the oil pressure and the pick up depression or differntial across the pump.Testing at acceleration and cornering. Monitoring the crankcase absolute pressure signature as well. The correllation could reveal a lot.

The little Mini racers had a similar situation . Many racers resorted to "surge tanks" A pressurized reservoir that would supply oil to the bearings when the pump's supply suffered an interruption. No doubt you know of them. There were about as many different surge tanks as there were Mini race cars using them. A bit tough to apply here but not impossible.

 

Rather than come on line and appear to pick one type apart, what is wrong with making your own? Using original design concepts. I see nothing wrong with taking that initiative.

I understand the need to recoup your investment and the fact you are in the cycle business.

 

 

The use of the word sloppage was perhaps an unfortunate word choice. Sorry about that. Should call it a sump baffle instead.Photocopy rather than Zerox. The "sloppage plate" may not have been an Aussie slang term as I assumed. I am indeed sorry if the term is an original Roperism Perhaps CAPS are in order?

Two different books about the same story. That is how machines evolved. No more copy than a Ducati and a Guzzi. Windshields , Windjammers, Wixoms. Not copies.

I hope "plagiarise" is a bit extreme

 

If you are to be "pissed off" however I would rather not bother. At 59.000 hard miles , my 2001 V11 has had no signs of the problems discussed. I was merely interested in the research part. Getting real answers to what is going on is my main interest. Aside from the slight material cost, the cost for me to make the baffles is only time. If I were selling them it would be a different story.

A simple response here is fine. If you would prefer I didn't apply the baffle principle used on many other engines just say so. Untie the knickers, no need for a knot.

It won't piss me off either way. Otherwise I will be happy to fill you in before anything is put out here

Rest assured there was never an intent to copy in any way your plate. If I were to use one like yours I would indeed just buy one of yours. It's not an issue of need, money or fame . Experimentation is the only interest.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Peace .

[Ryland3210]

 

... .For instance, avoiding the extra gasket joint used in the sandwich approach by a DIFFERENT DESIGN, among other differences. Testing effectiveness with a strip chart recording of the oil pressure and the pick up depression or differntial across the pump.Testing at acceleration and cornering. Monitoring the crankcase absolute pressure signature as well. The correllation could reveal a lot.

The little Mini racers had a similar situation . Many racers resorted to "surge tanks" A pressurized reservoir that would supply oil to the bearings when the pump's supply suffered an interruption. No doubt you know of them. There were about as many different surge tanks as there were Mini race cars using them. A bit tough to apply here but not impossible.

 

... Experimentation is the only interest.

Peace .

 

Gary, personally, I'm very interested in any objective data you may obtain, and would consider your sharing of that info. a generous act. I share your interest in experimentation. At Tymac, we make 2000+ horsepower hydraulic metal injection systems for pressure die casting. Surge tanks (accumulators) are used to maintain oil pressures of 2,000 to 6,000 psi at flow rates of 2,000 gallons per minute, so I have some experience with their design and application.

 

I'm intrigued about using one on a bike, but have two comments: One concern would be how much additional oil would be needed. The other is that unless some additional sequence valving were used, the surge tank would consume some oil during cold starts that would otherwise go to the engine, as pressure builds in the surge tank.

[dlaing]

For instance, avoiding the extra gasket joint used in the sandwich approach by a DIFFERENT DESIGN, among other differences.

Damn you, you psychic copy cat!

I was thinking the same thing!!!!!!!

I was going to share the exact details, but since this place is trolling with greedy capitalist pigs <_ ready to make a fortune in the lucrative guzzi aftermarket i better not say anything.....wtf that is stupid spirit of this wonderful forum will act like commie idealist and share my idea.>

Since the term 'sloppage sheet' is spoken for, I have come up with the heretofore copyleft term, "Anti-Reversion Thingy" aka, "ART"

The concept is not to sandwich something with the gasket, as that just ain't brilliant, but to bolt something to the rear of the sump that will displace and or block the reversion of lube juice ("lube juice" is also hearby copyleft).

It should have a lower risk of leakage, it won't do a jack about windage or nose wheelies, and it will be really really easy to install....the only problem is all that R&D crap of paying someone like Greg Field to "field" test it.

And then off the plans go to the Godless Chinese Commie Industrial Complex, and within six months from now you should be able to buy it at Walmart

[luhbo]

R&D and testing and so is not that big problem. Put a "Road Test" sticker on your helmet, a "Test Bike" on your tank and then push the bike up a hill as fast as it can, then accelerate it as hard as ever possible, then reve it really hard, and when I say really hard I mean really hard! All my life I meant really hard when I said really hard. I've said this multiple thousand times, with a hard voice even. So you can guess how hard you should reve it!! And you'll probably see, everything just worked fine. (But take care that none of your neighbours can watch you!)

 

Just don't make the fault and say that without the sheet and without such experience about doing things the real hard way it may have worked as well.

 

Once there was a longer thread here about how to keep the oil away from the rotating crankshaft in order to minimise losses of power and oil as well. I can't see how this actual design will serve this purpose.

 

I'm still looking for any numbers about how much oil per minute the pump delivers at 6000 rpm. So far I found only values for small car engines. They average is about 120 l/min or 2l/second. I don't know how much of this goes through the bypass valve, but it could be the case that every second half a litre is pumped above the plate and kept near the rotating shaft for some time. This happens not only when you accelerate as hard as you ever have dreamt of, this is fact all the time.

 

So to get the most out of the spent money the average happy RSS owner should think about radically changing his driving style.

 

Hubert

[Skeeve]

 

The use of the word sloppage was perhaps an unfortunate word choice. Sorry about that. Should call it a sump baffle instead.Photocopy rather than Zerox. The "sloppage plate" may not have been an Aussie slang term as I assumed. I am indeed sorry if the term is an original Roperism Perhaps CAPS are in order?

 

Well, if you must know, it was a Skeevism, since in the original thread where we all were discussing windage trays & Pete was saying his design wasn't going to be designed to such close tolerances that it would skim oil off the crank ("windage") but would instead be focused on keeping the oil from sloshing around in the sump, at which point I coined the term "sloppage sheet" in one of my replies.

 

"Sump baffle" is entirely too plebian. Accurate, but boring. Shame on you!

 

BTW, what's a Zerox? You planning on running w/o a crossover, ie, zero-x?

 

Ride on,

[pete roper]

Copy cats often start by buying a sample. A copy was never the intent.

Pete.

 

I think an apology is in order Gary. My mistake, I'm sorry. As you may of read I've been under a fair bit of stress of late and I mis-interpretted your original post.

 

Pete

[helicopterjim R.I.P.]

Just to relieve the tension my V11 has never had the oil light flicker or illuminate as I performed any one of the many wheelies my bike likes to do but I am truly considering 3 "sloppage trays" for my V10. V11 and V12. I think the MGS is the one I most wish to protect!

[Guest Gary Cheek]

I think an apology is in order Gary. My mistake, I'm sorry. As you may of read I've been under a fair bit of stress of late and I mis-interpretted your original post.

 

Pete

 

Pete , The way I wrote it I can easily see why it was taken the wrong way. I only wanted to clarify my intentions after that. I'm sure if we were in the same room ,the brainstorming would be a lot easier. Clarity is the important issue. It looks as if we have thqt.

My sincere sympathy for your recent loss.

 

Gary.

[dlaing]

Just to relieve the tension my V11 has never had the oil light flicker or illuminate as I performed any one of the many wheelies my bike likes to do but I am truly considering 3 "sloppage trays" for my V10. V11 and V12. I think the MGS is the one I most wish to protect!

You should also get a sloppage tray for you passengers to put in their stomach

If I were you, I'd be sure to keep the fluid level up and to not pop any wheelies until you get the sheets, but I fall into the Guzzichondriac category.

[luhbo]

Now, that's what's called an ignorant. It seems he's looking elsewhere instead onto his flickering oil presssure light!

 

 

Hubert