Installing a Roper Sloppage Sheet

[Ryland3210]

The plate won't prevent the oil fromsurging backwards completely. The rectangular hole has to be there as the oil pressure relief valve sits proud of the top of the spacer where the plate fits. Also there has to be some space for the oil to return to the sump while the engine is running. ....

 

As I also stated earlier IMHO the CORRECT level for the oil should be just below the plate which coresponds to the bottom of the block. When the plate is installed it is work marking the dipstick at that point. While by doing this you will be adding a bit more oil and therefore will slightly increase the crankcase pressurisation the plate will help prevent oil expulsion by reducing windage so it is unlikely that the breather system would be over-taxed by the extra oil volume. Since many people have already started running their 'Broad Sump' Engines over-full to combat the loss of pressure problems I can't see this over-pressure causing any sealing problems.

 

Pete

 

Thanks, Pete. I understand completely. I'm a mechanical/hydraulic/electronic engineer and have a fairly thorough knowledge of theory and hands-on practice regardling motors. It's the details and seeking perfection in the physics and the operation of my vehicles that interest me. FWIW, in another thread on the oil filter cover, I had reported measurements of oil level vs. dipstick marking, and noted that on my bike the full mark was 0.69" low at 3.5 liters. Actual oil level was 1/3" below the block/sump gasket. That's pretty close to your recommendation, which I agree with.

 

I'm still learning about my V11, and your comment about pressurization caught my eye. Surely there must be some method of balancing the internal pressure to atmospheric. I don't recall whether the pistons are 180 degrees out of phase. If not, pressure amplitude would be relatively higher, and increase with more oil in the sump, but not the average pressure, it seems to me. On the other hand, my Norton was equipped with a very low cracking pressure non-return (check) valve on the breather hose, intended to create a partial vacuum in the sump to reduce oil leakage. Perhaps the same system is used on the V11?

[jrt]

AM I DARWINIAN?

 

Mmmmm, depends. Do you have children?

[Greg Field]

I got a chance to do a proper test tonight. I tried to duplicate exactly the conditions under which the oil pressure dropped to zero before: oil level halfway or so between the full and add marks, same spot, same full-throttle sprint into a traffic hole, etc.

 

I watched the gauge during two such sprints and the pressure kept climbing with rpm, instead of dropping to zero.

 

Then, I headed downtown, to the Pike Place market, where there's some really steep side streets on which to try some full-throttle uphill starts. Man, the rear wheel was a'skipping and a'hopping and a'chiping as I tore up those cobblestone goat paths, but the pressure kept rising with rpm. Short of an extended high-angle-wheelie test, I do not know what could be a more torturous test than this. Three passes, and no pressure loss.

 

Congratulations, Mr. Roper. I think you came through, once again!

[dlaing]

I got a chance to do a proper test tonight. I tried to duplicate exactly the conditions under which the oil pressure dropped to zero before: oil level halfway or so between the full and add marks, same spot, same full-throttle sprint into a traffic hole, etc.

 

I watched the gauge during two such sprints and the pressure kept climbing with rpm, instead of dropping to zero.

 

Then, I headed downtown, to the Pike Place market, where there's some really steep side streets on which to try some full-throttle uphill starts. Man, the rear wheel was a'skipping and a'hopping and a'chiping as I tore up those cobblestone goat paths, but the pressure kept rising with rpm. Short of an extended high-angle-wheelie test, I do not know what could be a more torturous test than this. Three passes, and no pressure loss.

 

Congratulations, Mr. Roper. I think you came through, once again!

Excellent

So, if that is at the half way mark with the stick inserted and threaded, it seems that the full mark with stick inserted and threaded should be fine, and that the full mark inserted to the top of the threads might be overkill and potentially cause problems.

Although to be sure, you might have to drain it to the lower mark and test it...and that test might not pass

And if you like popping wheelies, I guess you might want to fill it to the top of the mark, stick screwed out.

[Greg Field]

I should've just marked the level of the bottom of the plate and used that as the new upper oil level. It was early in the morning, though, and I was out of coffee, so the obvious was not so obvious.

[jenslh]

Greg's excellent report on installation of a windage plate, is now available at Guzzitech.dk - Credit to Rolf Johansen (as usual) for the nice pdf layout.

 

Go to http://www.guzzitech.dk/english and find the proper link in the right hand section.

 

Greg: I did'nt ask you this time, but I hope your permission to publish your posts still holds ?

 

/Jens

http://www.guzzitech.dk/english

[Ryland3210]

I should've just marked the level of the bottom of the plate and used that as the new upper oil level. It was early in the morning, though, and I was out of coffee, so the obvious was not so obvious.

 

On my bike, with the dipstick screwed in, the oil level at 3.5 liters is 0.69 above the full mark. At the bottom of the plate, the level is a full inch above the full mark!

[Guest ratchethack]

On my bike, with the dipstick screwed in, the oil level at 3.5 liters is 0.69 above the full mark. At the bottom of the plate, the level is a full inch above the full mark!

Ryland, I never trust volume measurements to replace oil, except as a rough estimate. There are too many variables involved. The varying amount of OLD oil left behind after draining is the key, and this depends on how level the engine is at time of drain (which depends on what kind of stand is used, how level the floor is, etc.), not to mention the temp of the oil at time of drain, whether or not you replace the filter -- and then we have such things as oil coolers to be concerned about. The bottom line is that no one's ever exactly sure how much oil might be left in there. But that's just me.

 

Unless somebody beats me to it (seems more'n likely now ), as soon's I get ahold o' one o' Pete's plates, I'll have the sump and spacer off for installation, I'll have had my coffee (ahem, Greg ) and I'll post a shot of a straightedge held across the bottom of the block, held up against the dipstick with a ruler beside it. I reckon that'll put all the wild speculation to rest. It's wot I'll be using as THE definitive guide to oil level.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV

[dlaing]

Unless somebody beats me to it (seems more'n likely now ), as soon's I get ahold o' one o' Pete's plates, I'll have the sump and spacer off for installation, I'll have had my coffee (ahem, Greg ) and I'll post a shot of a straightedge held across the bottom of the block, held up against the dipstick with a ruler beside it. I reckon that'll put all the wild speculation to rest. It's wot I'll be using as THE definitive guide to oil level.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV

The "proper" oil level will always be subject to speculation.

The beauty of Pete's tray is that it extends the range of "acceptable" oil level.

Greg suggested the proper level is at the sloppage sheet.

I suspect this is too high, unless popping wheelies is your thing.

More importantly I suspect, and I think we all can agree, that the low mark with the dipstick screwed in is too low, and so low that the sheet might not help.

I suspect the proper level is somewhere between the high mark screwed in and the sloppage sheet.

I suspect the proper level is near Ryland's adding 3.5 Liter measurement, assuming he measured on flat ground, with proper sag , changed the filter, and didn't double dip the dipstick

[Skeeve]

On my bike, with the dipstick screwed in, the oil level at 3.5 liters is 0.69 above the full mark. At the bottom of the plate, the level is a full inch above the full mark!

 

So, just out of curiosity [since I'm nowhere near my Bike & can't recall having even looked at the threads on the dipstick before...] - how long is the threaded section on the dipstick? Eg: if you were to just rest the dipstick on top of the hole, as is done for just about every other vehicle on the face of the earth, how much different would the "full" line be from where the actual "fill to" mark should be, measuring off the bottom of the sheet? [Of course, this entire question is rhetorical, since I'll inevitably be measuring all this for myself when I finally get my hands on one of the trays and have the Bike apart to install it, etc. etc., but just salve my curiousity, somebody, won't you? ]

[Guest ratchethack]

Skeeve, I was just checking my oil. The end of the threaded part of the dipstick head is 14 mm from the face of the dipstick head (the part that seats against the block).

[dlaing]

Skeeve, I was just checking my oil. The end of the threaded part of the dipstick head is 14 mm from the face of the dipstick head (the part that seats against the block).

The manual recommends 3.5 liters = 3.7 US quarts = 3.08 imperial quarts, which I believe all accounts, puts us over the apparently incorrect, manual recommended, threaded in, high mark.

FWIW the 0.69" = ~17.5mm which does not equal 14mm, but is close enough for me.

Keep in mind the sloppage sheet will probably lower the pan but not the dipstick, so the 17.5mm will become about 15mm with 3.5 liters.

Unless there is other evidence, I think I'll add 3.5 liters at oil change (where I drop the pan and change the filter, and then to make sure it does not drop too low, go with Greg's previously mentioned method of not screwing in the dipstick, and just make sure it stays about the high mark.

[Ryland3210]

Ratchethack,

 

Of course, you're concern about the variable is well taken. My measurements were carefully taken under the following conditions:

Filter changed, bike held level via overhead crane, sump drained overnight, filter cover wiped dry, vernier caliper to obtain location of dipstick relative to block gasket while dipstick was screwed in, tri square to verify dipstick angle was 45 degrees, 70 degree ambient temperature, and oil volume accurate to + - 1/4 ounce.

 

I feel that measuring oil level with the dipstick resting on the threads is less accurate, particularly due to the challenge of trying to maintain the dipstick in line with the threads, and not allowing it to droop down into the oil.

 

The manual does not specifically state whether the 3.5 liters includes filling the oil cooler and other parts of the engine. I supposed it was reasonable to assume they intend 3.5 liters under refill conditions. I was content with my 0.69" location also because that was still 1/3" below the gasket.

 

In the case of at least my bike, and probably most, if not all with the broad sump, it appears volume measurements were more accurate than the dipstick marks for the purpose of calibrating the dipstick.

 

Of course, having done that, henceforth I'll be using my new marks so I won't have to bother with the painstaking steps described in my first paragraph.

[Guest ratchethack]

Interesting points, Ryland. My own experience is that under nearly identical conditions of temperature, angle of the block relative to horizontal, etc. that using volume measure alone to refill after oil draining can be spot-on one day and considerably over or under-filled the next. I concluded long ago that it's the amount of oil coming OUT that varies due to so many factors that the net effects are (at least by me) still poorly understood. I imagine oil galleries that for whatever reason, may remain filled despite my draining efforts -- or not.

 

I have an offroad-capable dry sump bike to which I've added an oil cooler. Without having added a separate drain for the oil cooler, there's no telling how much oil would be retained in there and in the lines that feed and drain it. There are siphoning effects, high and low spots, etc. to be taken into consideration. The bike has an in-frame oil tank with a separate drain for the frame. I suspect that there may be as much as a pint or more of oil retained in the oil systems after all efforts I can muster to get it out. Though generally speaking, I would assume that siphoning and high and low spots in oil galleries have been carefully eliminated in the design of the V11 block, the same kinds of things -- though to whatever lesser degree -- come into effect here and there - and who knows when all conditions may align to conspire?

 

If a volume measure MUST be adhered to when doing oil changes, my observation is that one must carefully measure the volume of oil coming out, and exactly duplicate it with the new oil going in, then be sure to run the engine up to full operating temperature and cool again to the temperature originally drained to be certain of achieving the correct level in the sump when checked with the dipstick. Frankly, I've never been motivated enough or interested enough to do this -- and I don't expect to be, since it's so much simpler to use the dipstick as a guide, run it up to temperature, cool down, and adjust the level as necessary.

 

Guzzi - like other mfgr's - must specify a volume of oil capacity for many reasons, like they do for gas. But once an engine has had its first oil change, I suggest that maintaining an exact oil volume is no longer as important to proper lubrication and cooling (since these may be assumed as long as they are in the correct range) as is the oil level.

 

Since many of us will be putting in the Roper plate, what I suggest we're looking for is a new "happy range" of ideal oil level which I expect will be both raised and extended significantly with the addition of the Roper plate. This "happy range" will extend above and below a level that is high enough to keep the sump pickup comfortably buried under nearly all imaginable road conditions, yet is not high enough to induce an undesirably high level of oil flow through the condenser and vent via excesssive windage.

I feel that measuring oil level with the dipstick resting on the threads is less accurate, particularly due to the challenge of trying to maintain the dipstick in line with the threads, and not allowing it to droop down into the oil.

So do I. I note that resting the threaded end of the dipstick head on the block port is no insurance at all of an exact 45 degree angle of read, which is critical to an accurate dipstick read. I suspect that therefore, the variance in reading on the dipstick due to whatever angle the dipstick head comes to rest (unless you're very careful) may be off by as much as a US quart!!!

In the case of at least my bike, and probably most, if not all with the broad sump, it appears volume measurements were more accurate than the dipstick marks for the purpose of calibrating the dipstick.

Hm. As far as I'm concerned, I don't care much about the volume of oil in there. Again -- if it's within a few cm of the limits the factory put on the dipstick, I'm willing to assume the lubrication and cooling needs of the motor are bring met (barring wheelies, drag-strip launches, crashes, etc. -- and without a Roper plate), and for practical purposes (as noted above), the volume is irrelevant.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV

[Greg Field]

The angle thing will no longer be an issue if you install Pete's plate. It has a small oval hole that the dipstick must go through to get a reading. If the stick is through that hole you cannot be off the correct angle by enough degrees to make a difference.