Roper Plates and Oil Level

[Guest ratchethack]

Gents! As it happened, there was a whopping great Guzzi Clinic at the Hatchracket shop today, with Roper Plate Installation -- we did 2 -- being the main attraction.

 

For those still wondering, and/or possibly confused by all the previous wild speculation, long distance photography (think angles and 3D parallax ), and my armchair geometry in July (EDIT! I just checked - I had it exactly right to the mm See post here: http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...ost&p=95648 ) -- and all the lung windage over where the oil level on the dipstick ends up relative to the Roper plate, please consider the photo, which was made with a straightedge held up firmly across the bottom of the block with the dipstick fully seated. Oh yeah - I should mention that I've doctored-up the dipstick to make it easier to read (works like a Champ).

 

All dimensions below are identical for both a 2000 Sport and a 2004 Le Mans. Thanks, Greg, for getting the gaskets shipped out as promised.

 

The high level mark = 21 mm below the block (18 mm below the Roper plate).

The low level mark = 41 mm below the block (38 mm below the Roper plate).

 

NOTE: the Roper Plate + 2 new, compressed gaskets = ~3 mm.

 

The thickness of the sump spacer, Roper Plate, and 2 gaskets = 30 mm.

 

I'm expecting that maintaining oil levels equivalent to as much as a pint or even a quart above the high level mark (dipstick fully screwed-in) will now be tolerable for the Guzzi donk with the plate installed, because what previously had to be considered "excess" now won't be forced to blow out thru the breather. Time will tell . . . .

 

Another solid insurance policy -- as well as a significant real-world practical mod -- well worth the effort, IMHO.

 

Many thanks again to Pete for all his efforts!

[pete roper]

Many thanks again to Pete for all his efforts!

 

Mate, it's a pleasure. No, I won't be retiring on the profits of these, even if I add them to the outrageous piles of money I get from promulgating the use of UFI filters . They were produced because someone had to and I just happened to be the bloke with the time and the inclination. IMHO the problem should never have been there in the first place, but it is and I'm confident that in almost all situations it will solve the loss of oil pressure problems. I agree that adding more oil so that it is level with the bottom of the plate and marking the dipstick accordingly is the way to go. My reasons for suggesting using the plate as well as *over-filling* are that if you simply over fill the oil level will be closer to the crank and windage will pick it up and try to over-tax the breather system, the plate will help prevent this.

 

I designed and manufactured the plate NOT for profit but because this is the sort of thing that I get a great deal of enjoyment ut of. What profit I do make on the plates will just about cover the moving of the septic tank away from the house down at the beach and the digging of some new soakage trenches. Alas my dreams of one of these is still a long way off, and I'll never be able to afford the silly drinks and nubile young titters!

 

Pete

[callison]

I'll never be able to afford the silly drinks and nubile young titters!

 

Pete

 

Ya don't need no boat, when ya got somethin' to float...

 

[pete roper]

Thanks Carl. She's do at a pinch. Mind you being pinched by those could have a devastating effect!

 

Pete

[Alex-Corsa]

 

Judging from the pic , Ratchet , do you have a SOG multitool? I have the EOD Power lock , real hard dog and the Paratool ,both never let me down.

Don't overdoit wih the oil , with the plate now the motor won't starve

[dlaing]

Judging from the pic , Ratchet , do you have a SOG multitool? I have the EOD Power lock , real hard dog and the Paratool ,both never let me down.

Don't overdoit wih the oil , with the plate now the motor won't starve

But don't under do it either.

To be effective, the oil that sloshes back has to hit the sheet ceiling and fill the sloping sloshing volume between the sheet and pickup.

The low mark on the dipstick is about as low as I feared in my parallax nightmares.

Thank you RatchetHack for confirming.

Greg Field suggested filling it much higher, like right up to the bottom of the sheet.

That may be the way to go for wheeliers.

Perhaps a high mark in the vicinity of 10-15mm and a low mark around 20-25mm would be more ideal for mature sport riders.

Or use the same marks, but don't screw the dipstick in...as also suggested by Greg.

I suppose I'll defer to Greg and Pete for their expertise.

[Ryland3210]

 

 

All dimensions below are identical for both a 2000 Sport and a 2004 Le Mans. Thanks, Greg, for getting the gaskets shipped out as promised.

 

The high level mark = 21 mm below the block (18 mm below the Roper plate).

The low level mark = 41 mm below the block (38 mm below the Roper plate).

 

 

One more bit of information is needed for to compare my level and put this issue to rest for good: What is the length from dipstick to block mounting surface to your high and low level marks? I have read where there have been different dipstick lengths. Further to that, my plastic dipstick looks nothing like the one in your picture.

 

Thanks much.

 

 

 

 

Ya don't need no boat, when ya got somethin' to float...

 

 

Where is the "click to enlarge" button?

[Guest ratchethack]

Judging from the pic , Ratchet , do you have a SOG multitool? I have the EOD Power lock , real hard dog and the Paratool ,both never let me down.

Eh?? There's no multitool in the photo?? But as long as y'er asking, Alex, my personal choice for a multitool is the Leatherman Wave. I also have Tim Leatherman's original multitool, the PST (no longer available).

 

I happened to speak to Tim on the phone one time many years back on a business matter. Nice guy. I doubt he has much regard for the boys down in Oregon at SOG, who (along with the rest of the tool & cutlery mfgr's), have attempted to horn in on the market that Tim more or less single-handedly created from scratch, starting with the PST -- but that'd just be spec on my part.

Don't overdoit wih the oil , with the plate now the motor won't starve

One of the advantages of the Roper plate is that now "overdoing it" has extended parameters considerably. Y'er not overdoing it until you have enough oil in there to start to blow oil thru the breather and overwhelm the condenser via windage, as Pete has pointed out so often and so well. Now I don't use much of any noticeable oil between changes anyway, but from the posts I've read, some do. The plate allows a wider range of acceptable level in both directions from the stock specs on the dipstick. For many, myself included, I reckon this will mean not having to check the level as often. Now I ask you, is there any other way to beat that??

[jrt]

 

Where is the "click to enlarge" button?

 

I think she beat you too it.

[Guest ratchethack]

One more bit of information is needed for to compare my level and put this issue to rest for good: What is the length from dipstick to block mounting surface to your high and low level marks? I have read where there have been different dipstick lengths. Further to that, my plastic dipstick looks nothing like the one in your picture.

Ryland, if the dimensions I've given above aren't what y'er referring to by "dipstick to block mounting surface" for high and low level marks, I reckon I don't know what y'er asking??

 

While there's no doubt that there are different length dipsticks on Guzzi models, I believe that V11 dipsticks all have the same dimensions. Both the black plastic dipstick of the '04 LM and aluminum dipstick of my '00 Sport have identical dimensions.

[Ryland3210]

Ryland, if the dimensions I've given above aren't what y'er referring to by "dipstick to block mounting surface" for high and low level marks, I reckon I don't know what y'er asking??

 

While there's no doubt that there are different length dipsticks on Guzzi models, I believe that V11 dipsticks all have the same dimensions. Both the black plastic dipstick of the '04 LM and aluminum dipstick of my '00 Sport have identical dimensions.

 

I was looking for the length of the dipstick and position of the marks. Your answer, "identical" does it for me.

 

Your 21 mm agrees closely with my 18.23 mm measurement. My measurement was taken from the level of the actual oil wetting the dipstick. When rotated as one extracts it, the oil initially wets a little higher than the centerline of the dipstick, indicating a level a little higher than actual. That accounts almost exactly for the difference. Glad to see my measurements of last month independently confirmed.

[Skeeve]

Ya don't need no boat, when ya got somethin' to float...

 

 

Ahhh, dear Bette Balhaus! Too bad she got married & gave up the figure modeling, she was a real day-brightener!

[dlaing]

Am I correct in all my reasoning? Buggered if I know! But it makes sense to me. As I said before I actualy gave a fair bit of thought to the design of the plates and my suggestions are not made lightly and without due consideration.

Most of that made sense to me.

I only have two doubts. One was with the statement, " To do this most effectively the oil should be as close to it as possible underneath but NOT have any residual above it because...."

I don't think "residual" is what you meant to say, because residual is inevitable.

I assume you meant you simply don't want excessive build-up on top of the sheet.

My other doubt is with it finding its own level.

That is all fine, as long as that level is not to the point that Greg was experiencing oil pressure loss. I seem to recall that was at about the mid-point on the dip stick, which according to Ratchet's measurements, would be about 28mm below the sheet.

At that level, oil starvation may occur before the sheet stops the sloppage.

If Ratchet sets his to 21mm he should be fine, because his bike will not go significantly lower. But it seems that others should keep it topped up to at least the high mark.

Heck my reasoning could be flawed.

Personally I would prefer the sheet about 20mm lower than your design. But your design is simple, perfectly functional and simply saves the engine from starvation. It effectively expands the safe high and low levels, but not to the overly low, low mark on the dipstick.

I guess we will know more as more people simply let the oil find its own low level.

[pete roper]

 

I only have two doubts. One was with the statement, " To do this most effectively the oil should be as close to it as possible underneath but NOT have any residual above it because...."

 

I suppose what I meant by *residual* was any oil being above the plate while the engine is in service. To my mind you want to have as much oil in the engine as possible, (As stated, I don't think that pressurisation is going to be increaed enough to damage seals.) without it being above the plate. If it IS above the plate then the secondary function of preventing crank windage of the oil simply cesed to happen, the plate, (Apart from the 'Slop Stop' becomes nothing more than excess weight.

Sorry, gotta go, supper and all that

 

Pete

[pete roper]

Greg Field suggested filling it much higher, like right up to the bottom of the sheet.

That may be the way to go for wheeliers.

Perhaps a high mark in the vicinity of 10-15mm and a low mark around 20-25mm would be more ideal for mature sport riders.

Or use the same marks, but don't screw the dipstick in...as also suggested by Greg.

I suppose I'll defer to Greg and Pete for their expertise.

 

Dave, there are a couple of things that need to be taken into the equation.

 

As the pistons move up and down the bores the volume of the crancase changes. Not by the full 1064cc's of swept volume but by a substantial part of it. The maximum volume will be achieved when the crankpin is at twelve o'clock and the minimum when it is at 6 o'clock. This means that as the crank spins the crankcase effectively 'Pants', this, along with the fact there will always be a bit of blow-by past the rings etc. means that there will always be a bit of pressure being relieved through the PCV ball valve, especially as revs rise.

 

Inside the case there is a lot of oil flying about! Great streamers of it will be coming off the crank webs and the gas inside the case will be saturated with little globules of oil formed mainly when the streamers splash against the walls of the case, the surface of the oil in the sump and anything else inside there.

 

The more saturated the gas that is expelled from the case the harder it is fo the condensor system, in the case of V11's the frame spine, to catch it all, condense it and return it to the sump via the return pipe.

 

The further the oil in the sump is away from the crank the less chance there is of the vorticeese (sp) behind the crank webs drawing up oil from the sump into themselves as the streamers from the crank splash into the surface of the aerated oil in the sump.

 

The plate therefore has several benefits.

 

1.) The obvious one that it will help prevent the oil slopping rearwards under hard acceleration and exposing the pick up. To do this most effectively the oil should be as close to it as possible underneath but NOT have any residual above it because....

 

2.) If there is residual above it then the crank vorticees will pick it up and hold it in suspension in the gas within the case so it will be pumped out of the breather and start to tax the condensor.

 

3.) Surface tension will encourage oil coming off the crank to stick to the walls of the crankcase and the top of the plate hastening it's return to the sump. It will also help de-aerate it as bubbles of gas within the oil will be less likely to remain intact and because the plate is between the oil in the sump and the streamers of spray there will be less chance of the oil being frothed up as the streamers smash into the surface of the oil in the sump.

 

4.) Because of this there will be less oil in suspension in the gas in the case. This means that although the difference in between the greatest volume of the case and it's minimum more gas will *probably* be being expelled through the breather with each revolution of the engine the fact is it will be less saturated with oil and this will greatly assist the system to cope without expelling the oil vapor excess into the airbox for rebreathing through the motor.

 

This being the case there is, IMHO, a very strong argument for running the oil just below the sloppage sheet. While there may still be some aeration of the oil increasing it's *volume* in the sump when the engine is stationary and has been allowed to drain down there will be the volume of most of the galleries, plus oil draining down from the heads, to help compensate for that. If the oil is run just below the plate then there is greater discouragement for it to slop rearwards under acceleration as it doesn't have any air to displace simply by squeezing it out of the way. Air will pass through the drains in the plate much more easily than air and many times more quickly, even if the oil is hot and thin.

 

The reason why the *main*drain holes in the sheet are at the left hand front is because this is where the oil tends to end up as it comes off the crank. How do I know? Well several years ago, when I first saw one of Bruno Scola's plates I wondered about this. So I took the sump of an 850T and plumbed a pick-up hose onto the sump pick up after removing the stariner and dropped it into a 20 litre oil drum. I then lay on my side beside the bike with a timing strobe hooked up to one of the spark plugs and got a mate to start the engine and give it a rev while I lay beside it and a.) Got covered in oil. and b.) used the strobe to see where the oil was going. No, not particularly sophisticated and VERY messy but it DID show that the front left hand corner was where a LOT of the oil ended up Hence the holes!

 

For these reasons I suggest that when the plate is installed the dipstick should be marked so that when oil is added it will come up to just below the level of the plate. Then the bike should be ridden and my guess is that while a little bit of oil will be used at first it will, very soon, find it's own *level* and stop using any. From then on you can take that point on the stick as being the correct level to run your oil at.

 

Am I correct in all my reasoning? Buggered if I know! But it makes sense to me. As I said before I actualy gave a fair bit of thought to the design of the plates and my suggestions are not made lightly and without due consideration.

 

Pete