Havng to re-learn maintainence

[Crooz]

Having always owned Aisian & American bikes I'm having to relearn how to perform bacis upkeep on my new LeMans. Take for example Oil Changes & Fork Compression adjustments...

 

? So the screw-on oil filter is actually submerced in the engine oil? I'm having trouble with that one.

 

also...

 

The owners manual states that the top center adjustment screw on the left for is for compression dampening, and the same screw on the other fork is for rebound dampning! How can that be as the forks aren't connected ?

[Guest ratchethack]

...

The owners manual states that the top center adjustment screw on the left for is for compression dampening, and the same screw on the other fork is for rebound dampning! How can that be as the forks aren't connected ?

Crooz, whilst a few errant n'er-do-wells will be more'n happy to tell you that the Marzocchi fork models with compression damping on one leg and rebound on the other (mine, f'er example) are dangerous, fraudulent design rejects because they "obviously" cause y'er Guzzi to pogo down the road sideways, doin' a hippity-hop 2-step jumpin' jig jive, -- the fact of the matter is that it's a perfectly sound fork design with many decades of road and track history behind it -- all without a trace of the "binding" or "wobbling" that many insist it must exhibit. It's yet another case where the rumor mill has created completely unwarranted fear & loathing based on ignorance.

 

OTOH, with this setup, as Dave Laing has pointed out, you actually have the additional option (if y'er so inclined to ultra-fine-tune the fork) of being able to run different viscosity fork cartridge fluids for compression & rebound.

 

My broken record suggestion is to get 'em sprung properly to y'er weight and riding style, set the preload properly with spacers, and enjoy a mighty fine road fork that many find to be a perfect match to a (sorry, just stating the facts ) fundamentally challenged, and considerably overweight chassis by modern standards.

 

Think of it this way -- It's just one more of the many minor-league quirks of the Guzzi that many of us have grown to cherish beyond measure. . . . . . .

[jrt]

It's not submerged on the V11. On earlier models it was, but nowadays with these-here modern machines, you can access the oil filter directly. On the bottom of the oil pan is a "manhole cover". Remove that (a 22 or 24mm bolt head fits it...same size as the axle nut, I think), and use an appropriate tool to reach up and unscrew the filter. Sorry I don't remember- I just got back from 5 hours riding and I'm cold as heck. Cant' think straight.

Some people (like me) just advocate removing the pan entirely. That way, you can see if there is any particulates that are just swimming around in the oil. Doesn't happen often, but sometimes you find a bit of gasket sealant....

[emry]

Yes, convience and ignorance engineered into the same design. Welcome to Guzzi land. Yeah, spin on filter behinf the man-hole. Don't forget to pull any labeling taped onto the filter when you change it.

 

As for the forks, one contains only the valving needed for compression, the other only rebound. Thus the left fork provides all of the compression damping and the right provides all of the rebound. Several japanese makes used this style design to cut costs on their lower end bikes.

 

And the forks are connected, the front axle....

[Crooz]

It's not submerged on the V11. On earlier models it was, but nowadays with these-here modern machines, you can access the oil filter directly. On the bottom of the oil pan is a "manhole cover". Remove that (a 22 or 24mm bolt head fits it...same size as the axle nut, I think), and use an appropriate tool to reach up and unscrew the filter. Some people (like me) just advocate removing the pan entirely. That way, you can see if there is any particulates that are just swimming around in the oil.

 

I'm still confussed... you say its not submerged, yet you say oil is on the pan (which you remove the manhole from to access the filter). How can it not then be submerged in oil?

[Guest ratchethack]

I'm still confussed... you say its not submerged, yet you say oil is on the pan (which you remove the manhole from to access the filter). How can it not then be submerged in oil?

I think Jason really meant on the V-11, it's "accessible". Give the man a break, his chestnuts 'r frostbitten, f'er cryin' out loud. The filter's submerged. The pre-manhole cover ones forced you to remove the sump for access.

[jrt]

Man, they's things is sucked up to my lungs, I was so cold. I did about 300 miles in 35 F and a stiff north wind and wasn't dressed properly. When I came home, I measured my temperature with one of those infrared ear-drum devices and it registered 94 F (for the normal folk, it should be 98.6...my normal runs more like 98.0 by this device) I shoulda be dead at that temp, lol. Nothing a good hottub soaking and a couple glasses of wine didn't cure.

Anyhow- on earlier, "non-broad sump" bikes (like all the tonti models), the oil filter is in the sump and removing the oil pan is necessary to change the filter- there's no other access. Not a bad design necessarily, but it does have it's drawbacks. That's what I was trying to allude to and obviously was not clear. My apologies.

[pete roper]

Crooz, the Guzzi pushrod motor is absurdly simple. It only has about 12 moving parts, but it is essentially 1960's technology. Yes it's been modified and improved over the years but it is still essentially a ditchpump with fuel injection. It's heavy, not particularlly fast and compared with almost any machine built since about 1975 it is very unsophisticated.

 

The upside is that it is a dream to work on, setting the valve clearances will take you about 1/2 an hour the first time and consideably less after that. Originally, in 1967, the motor didn't have an oil filter. all the itterations of the motor since a filter was first fitted in about 1974/5 have either required the dropping of the sump to get at it or, in the case of the V11 'Broad sump' motors the removal of a plate in the bottom of the sump to allow access for a suitable filter wrench to change the filter. Many people still preffer to remove the sump plate as this makes filter access simpler and is no big deal really and you can clean out any condensation in there as well as thouroughly cleaning out any old oil residue or sludge.

 

The forks use compression damping in one leg and rebound in the other. It's not a system I think particularly wonderful but the wheel spindle is reasonably rigid and all Guzzi twins have a pretty good reputation for handling on the ROAD as opposed to the TRACK so they must work reasonably well

 

When you enter the Guzzi world you have to realize that while you are going to be sacificing some things like outright performance super-light weight this is compensated for by simplicity, a long life, great parts communality between models, (As I've said before there are quite a few common parts between the 1967 motor and the 2007 one ) and an ease of servicing that would make an imbecile weep! It's not a matter of seeing it as 'Italian Engineering', whether you see that as a plus or a minus, it's a matter of good, simple, engineering, although they are not without their faults.

 

If you intend to ride it hard I suggest that you do a search on the subject of flickering oil lights and sloppage sheets. No. I'm not trying to sell you anything. Just letting you know that the V11's DO have one glaring problem if ridden hard.

 

Pete

[Baldini]

...If you intend to ride it hard I suggest that you do a search on the subject of flickering oil lights and sloppage sheets. No. I'm not trying to sell you anything. Just letting you know that the V11's DO have one glaring problem if ridden hard...

 

Meanwhile, don't let engine oil level drop. Keep topped up to max or 1/4" above max on dipstick (screwed full home). This should avoid exposure of pick up in sump (causing starvation) under very hard acceleration. From what I've seen, this only occurs when oil level is down. Pete made up a batch of plates to stop oil migration which offers a solution.

 

KB

[Crooz]

- on earlier, "non-broad sump" bikes (like all the tonti models), the oil filter is in the sump and removing the oil pan is necessary to change the filter- there's no other access. Not a bad design necessarily, but it does have it's drawbacks. That's what I was trying to allude to and obviously was not clear. My apologies.

 

Thanks for all the info.

I have another question... if the previous owner chande the oil at 2500 miles, and I wish to change it again this week (@ 4400 miles). Is it a deffinate that I need to have a new sump gasket? I know that common sense would be to replace it, But I don't want to wait until next week when I could have a new gasket ordered and here. Normally... Can you reuse the gasket?

[Guest ratchethack]

Can you reuse the gasket?

Yep. I use the same one f'er years, even with a very light application of gasket dressing, which cleans right up with lacquer thinner and renews 'em just fine. Some guys go lots longer. Others re-use 'em dry. Depends on how you feel about Seepage, and his cousin, Weepage.

[dlaing]

Is there a thread on how to dress gaskets?

There sure are enough products and techniques.

Hylomar

Silicone RTF

YamahondaducatiBOND aka threebond

grease

oil

dry

For valve cover gaskets I use a non hardening dressing on the easier to clean, valve cover side, and a little grease on the engine side.

I do simiilarly with the sump.

I don't know if it is the best way to go.

I have used gasket removing sprays and hate the stuff.

Perhaps I should try the lacquer thinner that Ratchet suggests, then I might consider putting dressing on both sides.

But one warning about gasket dressing is to go very light with it, and don't goop it over the edge on the engine side or you MAY get plugged oil galleys or other malfunctions.

I like the non-hardening properties of the Hylomar Blue.

I have not tried the ThreeBond, but I think it works about the same.

Silicone gasket tends to be too thick, but may have advantages if your mating surface is scored, nicked, dinged, etc.

Silicone also seems to lose adhesion when exposed to oil.

Does anyone still use hardened gasket dressing?

I guess it might be good for places like the upper sump that may only be accessed once every twenty years.

Enough rambling...food time!

[Crooz]

Yep. I use the same one f'er years, even with a very light application of gasket dressing, which cleans right up with lacquer thinner and renews 'em just fine. Some guys go lots longer. Others re-use 'em dry. Depends on how you feel about Seepage, and his cousin, Weepage.

Personally I have never liked any members of the Page family !

 

Thanks for the info... tomorrow will be my first attempt and Guzzi maintenance.

 

So the process is.... 1)Drain oil via rear sump pan drain plug. 2)remove sump pan. 3)change screw-on oil filter. 4)clean screen filter. 5)clean up sump pan bottom if necessary 6) make sure sump pan gasket looks OK. 7)reinstall pan then plug. 8)refill with Castrol Syntec 20W/50. 9)check oil level after running. 10)admire your work and feel proud.

[pete roper]

That's basically it. Guzzi state that the oil level should be checked with the dipstick screwed in. General concensus with V11 owners seems to be that it is better and safer to either over-fill by 1/2 and inch when doing it this way or simply fill it so that it's at the max. mark on the stick without screwing it in.

 

As for cleaning the screen? I've been pulling Guzzis to bits for 27 years and the only time I've seen stuff caught in the screen is when something major has let go. Yes, by all means have a look but it's not worth removing it and scrubbing it, just give it a rinse along with the sump plate. If there ARE chunks of anything caught on it then you need to start seriously thinking about where they might of come from.

 

Pete

[belfastguzzi]

As for cleaning the screen? I've been pulling Guzzis to bits for 27 years and the only time I've seen stuff caught in the screen is when something major has let go. Yes, by all means have a look but it's not worth removing it and scrubbing it, just give it a rinse along with the sump plate. If there ARE chunks of anything caught on it then you need to start seriously thinking about where they might of come from.

There was undesirable stuff on the screen of mine at first couple of oil changes. Probably mostly black paint that, as has been noted in various threads, wasn't confined to the outside of engine parts only. This internal paint, whether deliberate or just overspray, can come off in largish bits. Paint on the face of casing joints has also been blamed for causing oil weep and particularly the weep that soon develops into an oil gush from the timing chest.

 

As Crooz has a 2002 bike, I assume that he is also blessed with the thick black engine paint – and will have it on 'the insides'. In that case (no pun intended), also watch out for the timing cover leak, often on top right side. In my case (no second pun intended) though, it was caused by a torn gasket from the factory. A whole chunk of gasket eventually dislodged. Others have found the same thing. Installation at the factory must be a bit careless.

 

On my first inspection I also saw that part of the oil pick-up casting had been cracked off at the factory. While it's unlikely that this careless damage would lead to broken parts ending-up in the sump (as they probably end-up on the factory floor when they are broken off) it is just possible that a aluminium casting could be cracked, stay in place and then come adrift during run-in.

 

So, it's definitely advisable to drop the sump, particularly in early miles, clean it out and inspect the doodahs.