High Value Guzzi Oil Filter

[Ryland3210]

 

The ST3614 uses a patent-pending combination anti-drainback and pressure relief valve design.

 

Well then. There you have it.

 

Hi Ratchethack (or any other knowledgable person)

 

Three questions: Why is anti-drainback needed on a filter mounted upside down?

What is the relief valve cracking pressure?

I have read elsewhere about two engines being blown in succession until the plugged oil cooler was replaced. I would like to know if there is a convenient location where oil pressure downstream of the filter and oil cooler can be monitored?

 

Thanks,

John M.

[Guest ratchethack]

John, I wish I could reply more knowledgeably. I'll just post to bump this up, so's Greg or Pete or someone else will be more likely to see it and weigh in with a properly qualified reply, as I'm interested meself.

 

To the best of my understanding, it matters not how the filter is oriented with regard to drainback. If oil in the passages up to the heads is allowed to gravity-feed backward through the filter element after shutdown, there's the distinct possibility of flushing some o' the nasty flotsam and jetsam back "upstream" of the filter in the passages of the PRV assembly and/or into the sump. Not a good thing. Once captured, best keep known murderous enemy combatants safely captured.

 

To embellish the analogy, one might think of an oil filter as the "Gitmo" of an engine lubrication system. It keeps murderous enemy combatant particles caught in the act of war on the motor isloated, and away from the US Judicial system, which, as we all know, eventually puts them all back in circulation to wage war on the motor all over again. . .

 

I don't know what the cracking pressure of the PRV is, but would also like to know.

 

As far as a "convenient" location for an oil pressure sender downstream of the cooler, I'd imagine between the banjo at the cooler and the compression fitting at the sump spacer is about as convenient as it gets?

[DeBenGuzzi]

I'm going to go with the K&N seeing as I only change the filter everyother time anyway. The slightly higher build quality should be able to hold up just fine and like pete said it doesn't really need to do much, the oil is more important and thanks to a few of you I'm a redline man 4-life. The cars on the other hand get whatever is cheap, bikes-redline.

[Ryland3210]

I'm going to go with the K&N seeing as I only change the filter everyother time anyway. The slightly higher build quality should be able to hold up just fine and like pete said it doesn't really need to do much, the oil is more important and thanks to a few of you I'm a redline man 4-life. The cars on the other hand get whatever is cheap, bikes-redline.

 

Be careful with the lowest cost oils. A cheap, non-leading brand 10-40 oil I used in a pinch, reverted to close to 100% 10 weight after only a few hundred miles at normal running temperature. Apparently the reformulating process used by some oil companies to increase viscosity does not achieve strong enough bonds in the long chain molecules. Since then, I stick with the lowest cost, but major brand oils in my automobiles.

[Ryland3210]

John, I wish I could reply more knowledgeably. I'll just post to bump this up, so's Greg or Pete or someone else will be more likely to see it and weigh in with a properly qualified reply, as I'm interested meself.

 

To the best of my understanding, it matters not how the filter is oriented with regard to drainback. If oil in the passages up to the heads is allowed to gravity-feed backward through the filter element after shutdown, there's the distinct possibility of flushing some o' the nasty flotsam and jetsam back "upstream" of the filter in the passages of the PRV assembly and/or into the sump. Not a good thing. Once captured, best keep known murderous enemy combatants safely captured.

 

I don't know what the cracking pressure of the PRV is, but would also like to know.

 

As far as a "convenient" location for an oil pressure sender downstream of the cooler, I'd imagine between the banjo at the cooler and the compression fitting at the sump spacer is about as convenient as it gets?

 

Hi Ratchethack,

 

So far, I've learned the following: according to Purolator's replacement for the UFI, their part number ML16822, relief pressure is 12-15 psi, and it has an anti-drainback valve.

 

I think you're right about the anti drainback valve being useful regardless of orientation. In the back of the Purolator catalog, there is a section on instructions for priming the oil pump after an oil change if oil pressure does not build up within 10 seconds of cranking. This is included because Purolator believes filters are sometimes unjustly accused of being clogged, while the real cause is cavitating pumps, especially when the oil sump remains empty for a long time. The recommended priming includes squirting oil down the passage to the pump and filling the filter with oil before installation. However, in the filter I looked at, the anti-drainback valve seems to consist of a neoprene disc which covers all the inlet holes. I haven't tried priming one yet, but I suspect this will make priming the inlet side of the filter difficult or impossible.

[Guest ratchethack]

John, I thought you were after the PRV cracking pressure for the Guzzi PRV itself, not the filter. These are two separate considerations, and I'm still hoping one o' our resident Pro's will chime in on this, as I'm a little fuzzy on it myself. I think it has an opening pressure of ~40-60 psi? Some clarification, particularly on how it is calibrated, would be appreciated.

 

We shouldn't have much concern about priming oil pumps, at least until it's fully Winter and the TV programming is -- well, what it is. There've been automotive applications for pre-start electric oil circuit primers for years. If anyone puts one on their Guzzi, I'd love to hear the justifications for it. . . . . . Pre-filling the new filters is about as anal as I'm ever going to be, and I'm pretty anal. . . . .

[Guest ratchethack]

(Thankfully) I guess I don't have anything better to do today. I looked it up meself in the Guzzi Service manual.

 

The PRV (Pressure Regulator <Relief> Valve) cracking pressure is 54-60 PSI (3,8 - 4,2 Kg/cmq).

 

It's shimmed to spec. by stacking washers under the relief plunger spring.

 

YIKES!

 

On the same page of the manual, the oil pressure sender is spec'd. to close contacts when pressure drops below 2-5 PSI (0,15 - 0,35 Kg/cmq).

 

As Pete has said so often and so well lo these many years, by the time you see the idiot light, it's pretty easy to understand how this is simply a notification of historical nature (as in past tense) that Mr. Crank Journal has already well begun making sump swarf out o' Mr. Babbitt Metal.

[Ryland3210]

(Thankfully) I guess I don't have anything better to do today. I looked it up meself in the Guzzi Service manual.

 

The PRV (Pressure Regulator Valve) cracking pressure is 54-60 PSI (3,8 - 4,2 Kg/cmq).

 

It's shimmed to spec. by stacking washers under the relief plunger spring.

 

YIKES!

 

On the same page of the manual, the oil pressure sender is spec'd. to close contacts when pressure drops below 2-5 PSI (0,15 - 0,35 Kg/cmq).

 

As Pete has said so often and so well lo these many years, by the time you see the idiot light, it's pretty easy to understand how this is simply a notification of historical nature (as in past tense) that Mr. Crank Journal has already well begun making sump swarf out o' Mr. Babbitt Metal.

 

That method of setting relief pressure is the traditional method used as long as I have worked on automobiles, which is a very long time. Shortly after I bought it, I increased the setting from 50 to 80 psi on my '67 Barracuda by adding a few washers.

 

Pete's right about the idiot light, and it's no different with cars. As long as there is any oil being delivered at all, the manufacturers don't want to make owners nervous with flashing red lights when they are sitting in traffic or at a light. That's why I love guages. If all the bearings were ball or roller, a few psi might be OK, but with journals, low pressure is a real problem.

 

If the relief pressure is 54 psi, and the oil filter drops another 15 psi before bypassing when it gets contaminated, there is only 39 of unfiltered oil left for the engine. Then imagine what happens when idling with a hot engine. Of course, with a pump in good condition, it will act as a fixed displacement pump, so even when idling, pressure will build to as much as is required to force oil through the filter, up to the relief setting. As the pump ages and begins to bypass internally with even a partially contaminated filter, there is the possibility nothing will get through the filter under low RPM conditions if pump pressure does not reach the filter bypass pressure. All of which you probably know, and once again, that's why I love guages.

[Guest Mattress]

(Thankfully) I guess I don't have anything better to do today. I looked it up meself in the Guzzi Service manual.

 

The PRV (Pressure Regulator <Relief> Valve) cracking pressure is 54-60 PSI (3,8 - 4,2 Kg/cmq).

 

It's shimmed to spec. by stacking washers under the relief plunger spring.

 

YIKES!

 

On the same page of the manual, the oil pressure sender is spec'd. to close contacts when pressure drops below 2-5 PSI (0,15 - 0,35 Kg/cmq).

 

As Pete has said so often and so well lo these many years, by the time you see the idiot light, it's pretty easy to understand how this is simply a notification of historical nature (as in past tense) that Mr. Crank Journal has already well begun making sump swarf out o' Mr. Babbitt Metal.

 

Thanks for finally posting that info. I asked in a different thread but no one replied.

 

What I would like to know: is it a steel poppet valve in the PRV? Riding in an aluminum bore?

 

Here is what I have witnessed in a diesel: a bit 'o crud causes the PRV to jam open. Or do to bad tolerances, the piston frets the aluminum bore and eventually has room to cock itself and jam open. You should be able to see witness marks on the piston or bore after teardown.

 

A jammed open PRV is worse than one that doesn't relieve pressure at all. You'll immediately be dumping all your oil through the valve, short circuiting the system.

 

As far as location for an oil pressure gauge, I'd choose a place after the filter but before the main gallery. I bet someone really smart with electronics could find a transducer that would fit the location of the Guzzi switch.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thinks the ECU doesn't use the OP switch signal to control anything. I think the signal may route through the ECU to tell it to turn on the idiot light to let you know it is time to call the tow truck.

 

My point is it might be possible to swap the switch for a transducer and connect the signal to a nice electronic gauge. Was there ever an earlier model Guzzi with an electronic gauge?

 

BTW, any one drive a Ford car with fake gauges?

 

Wot?

 

Take a Crown Vic, start the engine and the oil, volt, etc gauges pop right to the center mark. Drive around and be in awe that the needles stay perfectly center!! Ford cars are an awesome piece of engineering right? ,

 

Wait a minute. How come there are no numbers or scale on them there "gauges"? Because they are really just idiot lights! There are no transducers feeding a live signal behind the green curtain. It is a simple switch On or Off. If the pressure drops enough the needle will just lie down and then a real light will activate.

 

It is their sneaky cheap-bastard way of thinking you got more than you really do. A switch is cheaper.

 

IMO also a reason the Detroit Lions will never amount to anything as long as the Ford family owns them.

[dlaing]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thinks the ECU doesn't use the OP switch signal to control anything. I think the signal may route through the ECU to tell it to turn on the idiot light to let you know it is time to call the tow truck.

You are correct , the ECU does not use the Oil Pressure switch signal to control anything.

In fact there is no signal between the ECU and the pressure sensor.

It would be kool to have a lack of oil pressure kill the ignition and pull in the clutch all while not interfering with engine startup. We could sell them on eBay along with blinker fluid

[Ryland3210]

Thanks for finally posting that info. I asked in a different thread but no one replied.

 

What I would like to know: is it a steel poppet valve in the PRV? Riding in an aluminum bore?

 

Here is what I have witnessed in a diesel: a bit 'o crud causes the PRV to jam open. Or do to bad tolerances, the piston frets the aluminum bore and eventually has room to cock itself and jam open. You should be able to see witness marks on the piston or bore after teardown.

 

As far as location for an oil pressure gauge, I'd choose a place after the filter but before the main gallery. I bet someone really smart with electronics could find a transducer that would fit the location of the Guzzi switch.

 

IMO also a reason the Detroit Lions will never amount to anything as long as the Ford family owns them.

 

Lining journals with material softer than the crank has certain advantages. When a particle imbeds in the liner, the crank will keep turning. However, in my experience, using aluminum in a relieve valve poppet as critical as the oil supply is a mistake. Harder contaminants of the kind likely to be found in engine wear particles could imbed in the aluminum, causing long term, if not immediate problems. As long as the particles are relatively small (and they should be, unless the pump itself is failing) they will pass through the relief valve.

 

You may get your wish regarding Ford. GM is selling controlling interest in their profitable finance division to raise capital to hopefully fix their unprofitable divisions. Ford is further challenged by that, and is currently trying to sell all of its assets and drastically cutting employment. Unlike yourself, I view this as a tragedy. Henry Ford invented mass automobile production to make cars affordable to the common man. When he saw his own workers were not making enough to afford purchasing the cars they built, he gave them a raise so they could. It didn't take a union strike to make that happen, it was Ford's idea. The Ford family built the most completely self sufficient industrial enterprise from making their own steel all the way to the finished product.

 

Obviously Ford did a lot of things right to have survived this long, not only for their customers, but also their employees and suppliers. No one makes 100% perfect automobiles, and IMO there are no longer any significant differences in overall quality among manufacturers.

 

Remember that Ford is a public company accountable to millions of shareholders and managed by a board of directors that does not consist solely of Ford family members. Many industry icons like Lee Iococca learned their trade and skills there. I'm not a Ford stockholder, but it will be a sad day in my opinion when Japanese and Koreans, and soon to come Chinese, finally wipe out the American company that started it all and showed them how to do it.

 

Sorry to get off topic, but I'm not the first, and I had to speak out.

[Ryland3210]

 

As far as location for an oil pressure gauge, I'd choose a place after the filter but before the main gallery. I bet someone really smart with electronics could find a transducer that would fit the location of the Guzzi switch.

 

 

Thanks for the suggestion.

 

I have lots of experience using and designing systems using electronic transducers of many types, including pressure. It would be no problem replacing the switch with a sensor and meter. In spite of that, as an aftermarket add-on I would prefer a simple pressure guage. Less complex, no electrical signals or connectors (the most common cause of failure in the electronics business I have been involved in since 1973), and easier to install.

 

Nevertheless, if there is enough interest, I would be glad to put together a package of electonic components to do the job. I did similar projects for my Norton and '64 Harley.

[Guest Mattress]

Thanks for the suggestion.

 

I have lots of experience using and designing systems using electronic transducers of many types, including pressure. It would be no problem replacing the switch with a sensor and meter. In spite of that, as an aftermarket add-on I would prefer a simple pressure guage. Less complex, no electrical signals or connectors (the most common cause of failure in the electronics business I have been involved in since 1973), and easier to install.

 

Nevertheless, if there is enough interest, I would be glad to put together a package of electonic components to do the job. I did similar projects for my Norton and '64 Harley.

 

Well, if it is easy for you and you can identify a manufacturer and part number for a transducer that will screw into place, that might be enough for most people. I don't have electronics catalogs on hand, really no experience in that area. It was just a thought because I know that one difference between the Ford Powerstroke and the (essentially) the same engine we put in school buses and MD trucks is the latter use a transducer. They look identical except for the wire connector.

 

I was just thinking that it might be a cleaner install than an analouge gauge, but maybe not. Gary posted a "how to" for an analoge and it looks nice.

 

Off topic: I'm Michigan raised and I work for a supplier to Ford. I used to like the company before I worked here. They treat their supplier's employees like shit. Their ridiculous price gauging and other silly tactics have bankrupted plenty of companies in the Midwest who supplied to them. In addition to those jobs, they are busy hacking people in their own plants. Somehow the "business degree" holders with the 6 figure salaries don't see any risk to their sales by participating in the degradation of the middle class's buying power that is happening across this wall-mart nation. If they go under (which I doubt) they deserve it.

 

How would you like a 2/3rds salary cut? I think Delphi is hiring. And can we please stop throwing it all on the unions that it is there fault? Someone with a white collar at Ford signed those contracts too. And I think they set the unions up by offering more than they knew they could pay for. Now they can cry in front of a judge and get what they really want.

 

How is it that Japan & Europe car manufacturers are having success with such heavily unionized workforces? You think the unions got too much power here? In germany they have reps sitting on the company board.

 

P.S. I'm not in the union. And, a lot of people in Michigan know that Henry Ford was clever, but he was a self-interested asshole (and a reported racist).

[badmotogoozer]

As Pete has said so often and so well lo these many years, by the time you see the idiot light, it's pretty easy to understand how this is simply a notification of historical nature (as in past tense) that Mr. Crank Journal has already well begun making sump swarf out o' Mr. Babbitt Metal.

 

This is why I want to check and change my shells while I'm doing the Roper slopper. Even though the bike shows no symptoms (at least as far as I can remember - it hasn't been run in over a year now due to being in various states of disassembly...) I'm happy to spend the $400 on peace of mind as I have seen the light blink on briefly once (to my knowledge, maybe more...).

 

I'd rather find out now than in the middle of the central Oregon badlands next summer.

 

cheers,

 

Rj

[Guest ratchethack]

Take a Crown Vic, start the engine and the oil, volt, etc gauges pop right to the center mark. Drive around and be in awe that the needles stay perfectly center!! Ford cars are an awesome piece of engineering right? ,

 

Wait a minute. How come there are no numbers or scale on them there "gauges"? Because they are really just idiot lights! There are no transducers feeding a live signal behind the green curtain. It is a simple switch On or Off. If the pressure drops enough the needle will just lie down and then a real light will activate.

Abso-freakin-lootely amazing. Never owned a Fraud product, more'n likely never will. Crown Vic "cop cars" are one thing. But THIS amazes me. Now I seriously doubt if you'd be likely to find this kinda perverse, trashy dimestore eyewash in a Town Car -- or would you??