a hanging

[docc]

And from another courtroom and more to the topic:

 

Remember the guy terrorist who got on a plane with a bomb built into his shoe

> and tried to light it?

>

>

>

> Did you know his trial is over?

> Did you know he was sentenced?

> Did you see/hear any of the judge's comments on TV or Radio?

>

>

>

> Didn't think so.

>

>

>

> Everyone should hear what the judge had to say.

>

>

>

> Ruling by Judge William Young, US District Court.

>

>

>

> Prior to sentencing, the Judge asked the defendant if he had anything to say.

> His response: After admitting his guilt to the court for the record, Reid also

> admitted his "allegiance to Osama bin Laden, to Islam, and to the religion of

> Allah," defiantly stating, "I think I will not apologize for my actions," and

> told the court "I am at war with your country."

>

>

>

> Judge Young then delivered the statement quoted below:

>

>

>

> January 30, 2003, United States vs. Reid. Judge Young:

>

>

>

> "Mr. Richard C. Reid, hearken now to the sentence the Court imposes upon you.

>

>

>

> On counts 1, 5 and 6 the Court sentences you to life in prison in the custody of

> the United States Attorney General. On counts 2, 3, 4 and 7, the Court

> sentences you to 20 years in prison on each count, the sentence on each count to

> run consecutively. (That's 80 years.)

>

>

>

> On count 8 the Court sentences you to the mandatory 30 years again, to be served

> consecutively to the 80 years just imposed. The Court imposes upon you for each

> of the eight counts a fine of $250,000 that's an aggregate fine of $2 million.

> The Court accepts the government's recommendation with respect to restitution

> and orders restitution in the amount of $298.17 to Andre Bousquet and $5,784 to

> American Airlines.

>

>

>

> The Court imposes upon you an $800 special assessment.

> The Court imposes upon you five years supervised release simply because the law

> requires it. But the life sentences are real life sentences so I need go no

> further.

>

>

>

> This is the sentence that is provided for by our statutes. It is a fair and

> just sentence. It is a righteous sentence.

>

>

>

> Now, let me explain this to you. We are not afraid of you or any of your

> terrorist co-conspirators, Mr. Reid. We are Americans. We have been through

> the fire before. There is too much war talk here and I say that to everyone

> with the utmost respect. Here in this court, we deal with individuals as

> individuals and care for individuals as individuals. As human beings, we reach

> out for justice.

>

>

>

> You are not an enemy combatant. You are a terrorist. You are not a soldier in

> any war. You are a terrorist. To give you that reference, to call you a

> soldier, gives you far too much stature. Whether the officers of government do

> it or your attorney does it, or if you think you are a soldier. You are

> not----- you are a terrorist. And we do not negotiate with terrorists. We do

> not meet with terrorists. We do not sign documents with terrorists. We hunt

> them down one by one and bring them to justice.

>

>

>

> So war talk is way out of line in this court. You are a big fellow. But you are

> not that big. You're no warrior. I've known warriors. You are a terrorist. A

> species of criminal that is guilty of multiple attempted murders. In a very

> real sense, State Trooper Santiago had it right when you first were taken off

> that plane and into custody and you wondered where the press and the TV crews

> were, and he said: "You're no big deal."

>

>

>

> You are no big deal.

>

>

>

> What your able counsel and what the equally able United States attorneys have

> grappled with and what I have as honestly as I know how tried to grapple with,

> is why you did something so horrific. What was it that led you here to this

> courtroom today?

>

>

>

> I have listened respectfully to what you have to say. And I ask you to search

> your heart and ask yourself what sort of unfathomable hate led you to do what

> you are guilty of and admit you are guilty of doing? And I have an answer for

> you. It may not satisfy you, but as I search this entire record, it comes as

> close to understanding as I know.

>

>

>

> It seems to me you hate the one thing that to us is most precious. You hate our

> freedom. Our individual freedom. Our individual freedom to live as we choose,

> to come and go as we choose, to believe or not believe as we individually

> choose. Here, in this society, the very wind carries freedom. It carries it

> everywhere from sea to shining sea. It is because we prize individual freedom

> so much that you are here in this beautiful courtroom. So that everyone can

> see, truly see, that justice is administered fairly, individually, and

> discretely. It is for freedom's sake that your lawyers are striving so

> vigorously on your behalf, have filed appeals, will go on in their

> representation of you before other judges.

>

>

>

> We Americans are all about freedom. Because we all know that the way we treat

> you, Mr. Reid, is the measure of our own liberties. Make no mistake though. It

> is yet true that we will bare any burden, pay any price, to preserve our

> freedoms. Look around this courtroom. Mark it well. The world is not going to

> long remember what you or I say here. The day after tomorrow, it will be

> forgotten, but this, however, will long endure.

>

>

>

> Here in this courtroom and courtrooms all across America, the American people

> will gather to see that justice, individual justice, justice, not war,

> individual justice is in fact being done. The very President of the United

> States through his officers will have to come into courtrooms and lay out

> evidence on which specific matters can be judged and juries of citizens will

> gather to sit and judge that evidence democratically, to mold and shape and

> refine our sense of justice.

>

>

>

> See that flag, Mr. Reid? That's the flag of the United States of America That

> flag will fly there long after this is all forgotten. That flag stands for

> freedom. And it always will.

>

>

>

> Mr. Custody Officer. Stand him down."

>

>

>

>

> So, how much of this Judge's comments did we hear on our TV sets? We need more

> judges like Judge Young, but that's another subject. Pass this around.

> Everyone should and needs to hear what this fine judge had to say. Powerful

> words that strike home. God bless America

>

>

[Ralph Werner]

So, how much of this Judge's comments did we hear on our TV sets?

 

Didn't hear much of an outcry from Islamic leaders either.

[dlaing]

Just before sentencing

RICHARD REID: I start by praising Allah because life today is no good. I bear witness to this and he alone is right to be worshiped. And I bear witness that Muhammad Sa'laat Alayhi as-Salaam is his last prophet and messenger who is sent to all of mankind for guidance, with the sound guidance for everyone.

 

Concerning what the Court said? I admit, I admit my actions and I further, I further state that I done them.

 

JUDGE WILLIAM YOUNG: I didn't hear the last. I admit my actions and then what did you say?

 

REID: I further admit my allegiance to Osama bin Laden, to Islam, and to the religion of Allah. With regards to what you said about killing innocent people, I will say one thing. Your government has killed 2 million children in Iraq. If you want to think about something, against 2 million, I don't see no comparison.

 

Your government has sponsored the rape and torture of Muslims in the prisons of Egypt and Turkey and Syria and Jordan with their money and with their weapons. I don't know, see what I done as being equal to rape and to torture, or to the deaths of the two million children in Iraq.

 

So, for this reason, I think I ought not apologize for my actions. I am at war with your country. I'm at war with them not for personal reasons but because they have murdered more than, so many children and they have oppressed my religion and they have oppressed people for no reason except that they say we believe in Allah.

 

This is the only reason that America sponsors Egypt. It's the only reason they sponsor Turkey. It's the only reason they back Israel.

 

As far as the sentence is concerned, it's in your hand. Only really it is not even in your hand. It's in Allah's hand. I put my trust in Allah totally and I know that he will give victory to his religion. And he will give victory to those who believe and he will destroy those who wish to oppress the people because they believe in Allah.

 

So you can judge and I leave you to judge. And I don't mind. This is all I have to say. And I bear witness to Muhammad this is Allah's message.

 

YOUNG: Mr. Richard C. Reid, hearken now to the sentence the Court imposes upon you....

...and then the Judge handed down the sentence that DOCC posted followed by

YOUNG: Mr. Richard C. Reid, hearken now to the sentence the Court imposes upon you

...snip...

See that flag, Mr. Reid? That's the flag of the United States of America. That flag will fly there long after this is all forgotten. That flag still stands for freedom. You know it always will. Custody, Mr. Officer. Stand him down.

 

REID: That flag will be brought down on the Day of Judgment and you will see in front of your Lord and my Lord and then we will know. (Whereupon the defendant was removed from the courtroom.)

 

YOUNG: We'll recess. All rise.

I'll bet a different excerpt of the text is circulating Islamic email.

Bloody relativists!

[docc]

I can't even tell you the quote is ver batum. I certainly don't believe everything I read on the internet, magazines, books or see on TV , in movies or sometimes even with my own eyes.

 

It is notable that these acused did have trials which is a far cry from what Mussolini was met with.

[Guest ratchethack]

I'll bet a different excerpt of the text is circulating Islamic email.

Bloody relativists!

Yeah, I'll bet there might've been more than one "creative Islamic interpretation" email out there. Like Reid, there are lots of "creative" exploiters of Islam. What would be your point, and for that matter, what is YOUR interpretation, Dave??

 

While we're clarifying points, I found Docc's point above very clear and unguarded, just as he stated it. He was pointing out that the status of Reid's trial, and more specifically, the Judge's pre-sentencing comments from the trial, seem to've been largely omitted from mainstream media coverage -- "back-paged" out of full view of public exposure. How do you suppose this came to pass after all the spectacular front-page, above-the-fold pre-trial coverage of such a high-profile case?

 

Now you didn't state your point above, Dave. I can't quite imagine what it might be. Please explain what you're attempting to accomplish in response to Docc's post by replying with part of the court transcript sentencing statement of the convicted (assuming that's what you've posted without source reference), from the lying mouth of this murderous, filthy, fiendish piece of human offal, Richard Reid, "The Shoe Bomber".

 

Please do advise.

[dlaing]

I can't even tell you the quote is ver batum. I certainly don't believe everything I read on the internet, magazines, books or see on TV , in movies or sometimes even with my own eyes.

 

It is notable that these acused did have trials which is a far cry from what Mussolini was met with.

Who are "these accused"?

In the interest of "homeland defense", there are many innocent who are being held without trial and possibly tortured.

Richard Reid had no chance as he was unquestionably guilty.

The only purpose of the trial was due process.

[dlaing]

Yeah, I'll bet there might've been more than one "creative Islamic interpretation" email out there. Like Reid, there are lots of "creative" exploiters of Islam. What would be your point, and for that matter, what is YOUR interpretation, Dave??

 

While we're clarifying points, I found Docc's point above very clear and unguarded, just as he stated it. He was pointing out that the status of Reid's trial, and more specifically, the Judge's pre-sentencing comments from the trial, seem to've been largely omitted from mainstream media coverage -- "back-paged" out of full view of public exposure. How do you suppose this came to pass after all the spectacular front-page, above-the-fold pre-trial coverage of such a high-profile case?

 

Now you didn't state your point above, Dave. I can't quite imagine what it might be. Please explain what you're attempting to accomplish in response to Docc's post by replying with part of the court transcript sentencing statement of the convicted (assuming that's what you've posted without source reference), from the lying mouth of this murderous, filthy, fiendish piece of human offal, Richard Reid, "The Shoe Bomber".

 

Please do advise. <_>

As I was reading the portion of the transcript of the Judge's words, I wondered what inspired him to say what he did.

A quick google and I found the CNN excerpt, which was much more revealing, a more complete quote....you know, balanced journalism...I think the balanced journalism is more interesting and revealing.

To stop terrorism it is helpful to understand the motivation of the terrorist.

Do you want to give them more motivation and draw them out and make them breed their hate and multiply, the way the Bushies have done?

Or do you want to use your brain, and do what is necessary to make peace?

Or do want armageddon and Christian victory?

Or???

Please do advise.

If it is so serious that you find the need to insult those whom you disagree with about important matters, why don't you lay it all on the line and explain how you would shape the world?

So far all we know is you would make the rich richer, reduce polution controls, get rid of Bush and replace with????Mussolini????

[Guest ratchethack]

To stop terrorism it is helpful to understand the motivation of the terrorist.

Ah -- thank you, Dave, for clarifying your perspectives on how to stop terrorism.

 

Of course, this is exactly the kind of classic, Chamberlain-Hitler style of profound niavety that has brought on and expanded the scope of countless wars, resulting in the needless deaths of millions, and has made the likes of your Pals Jimmy Carter and Madamme Halfbright the laughingstocks of international diplomacy. There's been no excuse whatsoever for their ignorance of the lessons of history.

 

Can you name one time in human history when it was EVER "helpful to understand", acquiesce to, negotiate with, and/or appease the "motivation" of terrorists? Do you imagine it would have been "helpful" to 6 million Jews to understand the motivation of Hitler? Do you imagine it would have been "helpful" to half a million Iraqis to understand the motivation of Saddam before he sliced off their heads, threw them alive into vats of acid, burned out their eyes, gassed their villages, hacked off their limbs, disembowelled them alive and stuffed their living intestines down their throats and suffocated them on their own bowels? This is how Saddam and his Baathist thugs controlled Iraq, Dave, and its exactly how they and a half dozen other terrorist organizations wish to do so again just as soon as the Americans (whom they call cowards) are forced to leave under pressure from media propaganda that bends YOU to their will. These filthy tribal barbarians historically switch allegiances like horses, depending on who owns the greatest control of the most fear and hatred of the day. They are sharp, they have learned how to work the media and public opinion better than a New York Ad agency, and they're playing you like a Steinway.

 

These are the methods and tactics of control wielded by the brand of terrorism that Richard Reid embraced. Reid was about to incinerate a planeload of people and himself when he was apprehended. What more do you FEEEEEEL compelled to understand about the hatred behind his motivation? With this brand of terrorism on the rise, exactly what more do YOU think we need to "understand" about the motivation behind any form of terrorism when it lands on our doorstep, as it did in its most effective form to date on 9/11/01?

 

It has NEVER been as "helpful to understand" the motivation of terrorists as it has been helpful to understand THIS, Dave: When terrorists declare their hatred and express their intent to kill our people and demonstrate that they possess the means to accomplish it, and particularly when they demonstrate a history of making good on their threats, it is the responsibility and the duty of any government to protect its people. This means that when war is declared against us as a Nation by such terrorists, as it has been in our case, we don't hesitate to make war in defense of our lives. Whether this is acceptable to your "softer sensibilities" or not, Dave, war means war. This means having the will to call our enemies what they are, search out and kill murderers of our people, and kill our enemies before we are killed ourselves. Making war in defense of our people is the primary purpose for which our government was originally created, and thank God we had the will to do it so many times in the last century, thereby restoring and preserving the peace for most of the planet for most of the century when we so successfully mustered the courage and the will to act.

 

Now if you can't comprehend this, Dave, and you'd rather play "nice-nice" and go off into endless encounter groups to understand the motivation of bloodthirsty, psychotic, hate-filled murderers while they continue to wage countless suicide bomb attacks, slice off our heads, and perhaps feed us alive and screaming, as Saddam did thousands of Iraqi Citizens, through his purpose-built human shredders while their blood ran in the gutters, I reckon you might be too daft to pound sand. God knows there are thousands of dumbed-down, weak-minded fools who would have us do just that, and I reckon you're one of them. Thankfully, we haven't become so corrupted by propaganda as a Nation that we take our direction yet from those who would lay down in surrender to the threat of annihilation. God willing, that day will never arrive in this country.

 

Picking up the standard street-level propaganda that the Islamo-fascist terrorists need you to continue to swallow to achieve their ends, Dave, you had at one time insisted that Dubya had invaded Iraq to plunder their oil and murder innocent Iraqi Citizens. This of course, is unadulterated, pure propaganda straight from the likes of Ahmadinejad. Now you have evidently modified this slightly to suggest that it's oil PROFITS that have been eeeeevil motivation behind our liberation of Iraq. How do you propose to explain Chevron's significant successful oil exploration test, announced in September at the Jack #2 well in the Gulf of Mexico? This discovery expanded known oil reserves in North America by an estimated 50%. Oil prices plummeted nearly overnight. It would appear that our future dependence on oil from the mideast diminished very significantly over the next few hundred years at the same time. Take up our eeeeevil dependence on oil with y'er Master of Global Warming Fraud, Algore. His holdings in Occidental Petroleum are substantial, as discussed at length previously. He sat on the board of directors at OP, and maintenance of his family fortune is dependent on Big Oil PROFITS. By his actions, he doesn't seem too concerned about the future of OIL PROFITS by the "threat" of decreasing our dependence on oil. Being deep into Big Oil himself, Algore may well have calculated that OIL PROFITS will RISE with an increase in demand as the supply wanes in compliance with the draconian global restrictions on consumption that he proposes.

 

In the meantime, FREE TRADE with Iraq is currently necessary for the maintenance of our economy, and that's a fact. We are not plundering Iraqi oil, never have, and never will. We are NOT at war to protect oil profits, and that's another fact. Oil PROFITS are largely independent from oil imports, and have not significantly diminished beyond normal variances and fluctuating supply. If you don't like our Nation's dependence on oil, I suggest that you stop using it yourself and show the rest of us the way. Protecting our National interests -- including our economy -- by protecting free trade is NOT eeeeeeeevil, despite all your mindless, stupid brainwashing to the contrary.

 

Do you want to give them more motivation and draw them out and make them breed their hate and multiply, the way the Bushies have done?

Yeah, Dave. That's a healthy perspective. We give terrorists the motivation to kill us, so their aggression on the entire planet is our fault!!!

 

Now when I posted previously, I knew that your reply would likely contain some sick twist of the "blame Bush" hatred that dominates and controls your fevered psyche the same way it dominates and controls Richard Reid's mind and all the terrorists who've been conditioned, like yourself, to think of Dubya as The Great Satan. Sure enough -- Right on cue, you did not disappoint.

 

Now this will certainly be counter-intuitive for anyone who's as brainwashed as you are, but did you imagine, Dave, that an INCREASE in terrorist propaganda denunciations of Bush, or any other Commander in Chief of our Armed Forces, for that matter, is a BAD THING for international security? On the contrary, the time for us and the entire world to get concerned about our Commander in Chief is when terrorist propaganda denunciations DECREASE! Can you comprehend this at all? Has it escaped your attention that the drubbing that Dubya's Party (again - not my party, and one of my least favorite Presidents) got at the polls last week was met with something resembling praise in the usual international propaganda sources?

 

Answer this, Dave: Is Bush also to blame for the countless attacks of terrorism accross the planet, including those here in the USA before he took office? Is Bush to blame for the SECOND attack on the World Trade Center, and the Pentagon, and on the plane that crashed killing all on board at the hands of terrorists in Pennsylvania, and the separate plane hijacking plots on that day that were foiled, all of these events occurring on 9/11/01, mere months into his first term? If you're blaming Bush for that, you might as well throw Katrina on the pile, as oh so many actually HAVE -- again, fueled and supported by propaganda in the media.

 

Now Dave, please consider this: If and when Hitlery occupies the White House again, this time at the official helm of the Klinton II Regime, and we have a remake of the administration that ignored terrorism entirely -- and is therefore responsible for making the threat of terrorism from Islamo-fascism what it is to the world today -- do you dream in your most vivid dreams, Dave, that the threat of terrorism will vanish along with all the supposed "provocation" for it that you claim has been perpetrated by Dubya, as you and the mouthpieces for Islamo-fascist terrorism in the media constantly claim? Upon what basis in reality do you place your trust in such claims by terrorists? Is there anything that the leaders of the most bloodthirsty and unstable, wacked-out terrorist tyrants of the planet say about Dubya that you DON'T accept at face value -- lock stock, and barrel?? You're following their play-book to the letter. These are the same people who believe what Richard Reid believes, who would skin YOU alive and worse, simply for who you are and for what you believe.

 

Who will you put in your hate bucket along with Bush, Dave, two years from now, when Hitlery or the next figurehead of one party or the other is crowned the New Great Satan by organized terrorism and Dubya goes back to his ranch in Crawford to write his memoirs? Here's a hint -- Neither Hitlery or her alternate are likely to use our military to protect our Nation in any fashion resembling the way Dubya has. In this event, encouraged again by this and taking it as another "victory" over The Great Satan, the threat of terrorism will expand and become far closer and more ominous then than it is now, and your attempts to continue to stick Dubya with the blame for terrorism will appear in retrospect even more foolish than they appear today.

 

Yours is a formidably powerful kind of hatred, Dave. It's a willfully blind kind of hatred, the likes of which has to be cultivated and nurtured over the period of a lifetime, developed, and refined to a point where it's powerful enough to dominate the will against all reason, all facts, and all logic, as the terrorists who have fed and inflamed your blackest, most hateful emotions through our own media propaganda. Your hatred dominates your thinking, as it no doubt has your entire lifetime -- just as Islamo-fascists have understood so very well, from five centuries of barbaric manipulation of their own populations with hatred and terrorism. It's the same hatred they've always fed their own people and ingrained in them, and you've lapped it up the same way most of the 3rd world that knows little beyond fear and hate always has. They know no different, and neither do you. I truly feel sorry for you. Because hatred is such a powerful unifying principle in the hands of propagandists, you have been conditioned to fall in line with their thinking. Perhaps you're only a few steps away from officially joining up with them yourself. Richard Reid actually made those last steps. So have many others in this country and in other countries. How long will it be before you take those steps yourself, Dave? I suspect that you posted Reid's words above because you find sympathy -- even truth -- in them, and in his philosophy, if not his actions. Why not show some courage and just come out and say it?

 

Or do you want to use your brain, and do what is necessary to make peace?

Was the concept of the Colt Peacemaker and the use of it to keep the peace in a previous thread entirely lost on you, Dave, or are you still stuck back in the gutter-level mindset of the '60's with the thuddingly stupid, mindless slogan, "Fighting for peace is like F***ing for virginity"?? If you had any knowledge of history at all and had the ability to extract any wisdom from history, and if you still possessed any ability to think independently, you'd understand that what has always been necessary to make peace as a free Nation is to be ever willing and able to effectively make war in defense of the peace against outside aggression. This is how the USSR was defeated -- without a shot being fired. Most children are capable of understanding this, unless they've been fed a steady diet of hatred, the way organized terrorism feeds its flock and all the gullible who fall prey to it as you have. But I know this is lost on you.

 

If it is so serious that you find the need to insult those whom you disagree with about important matters, why don't you lay it all on the line and explain how you would shape the world?

Well, I believe I've layed my views on terrorism on the line here, Dave. You be sure to let me know how tyrranical and imperialistic I am, and how my attitude creates terrorism. Oh, it's serious alright. How much more serious do you want the threat of terrorism to become? It more than can get worse -- it likely will get lots worse. Your mindset a million times over will bring it on and fan the flames, just as it has been doing from the first terrorist attacks. Your Marxian philosophy is dead averywhere on the planet except in the last remaining dregs of Far Left Amerikan Liberalism, Dave -- and whether you recognize it or not -- it will soon run dry in our Nation. NO ONE buys that crap any more, and Pelosi and Schumer are about to learn this the hard way. It's the philosophy of a bygone era, and the wake of death and destruction left behind it is now a monument to its stupidity.

 

You have a choice Dave -- embrace the 6th Century mentality of barbaric Islamo-fascist terrorism that threatens the entire planet by laying down and letting it roll over you as Richard Reid chose to do, or you can stand with the rest of the planet and fight.

 

If you'd rather lay down and accept domination, I wonder if you're actually prepared for the life that Islamo-fascist terrorists have so clearly explained publicly so many times that they have in mind for you, Dave? How do you think you'd fare under Sharia law? For starters, your tongue would be cut out for speaking your mind publicly the way you have on this forum. You would not vote in open elections. You would be forced on the threat of your life to swear allegiance to Islam. You would hear the screams of those who refuse to accept Islam as they choked, coughing up and aspirating carotid and jugular arterial blood gurgling in their throats as their heads were slowly sawed off in the street in front of your house, to make sure the image of what happens to those who resist tribal Islamic rule is burned forever into your mind. Your wife, forced to wear the burqa in public and and now considered chattel, would suddenty have no more rights than your goats. All information available to you would be designed for your consumption and provided by your new form of tribal government. The new public square would run red with blood, featuring routine limb amputations at regularly appointed times for such offenses as theft, and followed, of course, by the ever-popular beheadings without benefit of trial as we know it, for the most serious infractions of Sharia law. Your gay and semi-gay friends would be quickly beheaded without benefit of representation or appeal.

 

This has been the history of the rise of Islamo-fascist terrorism on this planet, Dave -- whether your hatred has blinded you to it or not. Richard Reid embraced it. Is this what you strive so sympathetically to understand about the nature of the terrorism that publicly threatens your life before it's imposed on you?

 

I eagerly await your response.

[Ouiji Veck]

"helpful to understand",= acquiesce to, negotiate with, and/or appease the "motivation" of terrorists?

 

I think Winston UNDERSTOOD Adolf...more than Nevil.

 

Why is it necessisary to equate "understand" with "acquiese"/ "appease" to mount your argument?

It's intelectually dishonest. And the rest of your argument..... is remenisent

of the fine print of a swindlers contract. Kind of in the "baffel 'em with bullshit" line of debate.

 

Should we have joined in all out nuclear conflict with the USSR? Why did we bother to

"negotiate" "appease" "understand" them?

 

I'm real happy to have made your aquaintance Ratchet but if you want to follow an idealogical

nimrod talking head (Bill Kristol- PNAC) into an ill advised foriegn policy built on dreams of empire

I suggest you check your 6 before calling anyone "duped" or "brainwashed"

 

(have you read PNAC?...and you still think the war wasn't pre-determined?)

 

...lov ya brother.......

[John in Leeds]

I eagerly await your response.

 

More odious rant from you Ratchethack. I'm sure he'll have some ready disparaging labels for those of us who just cannot agree with his views

[Guzzirider]

Ah -- thank you, Dave, for clarifying your perspectives on how to stop terrorism.

 

Of course, this is exactly the kind of classic, Chamberlain-Hitler style of profound niavety that has brought on and expanded the scope of countless wars, resulting in the needless deaths of millions, and has made the likes of your Pals Jimmy Carter and Madamme Halfbright the laughingstocks of international diplomacy.

 

Can you name one time in human history when it was EVER "helpful to understand", acquiesce to, negotiate with, and/or appease the "motivation" of terrorists? Do you imagine it would have been "helpful" to 6 million Jews to understand the motivation of Hitler? Do you imagine it would have been "helpful" to half a million Iraqis to understand the motivation of Saddam before he sliced off their heads, threw them alive into vats of acid, burned out their eyes, gassed their villages, hacked off their limbs, disembowelled them alive and stuffed their living intestines down their throats and suffocated them on their own bowels? This is how Saddam and his Baathist thugs controlled Iraq, Dave, and its exactly how they wish to do so again just as soon as the Americans (whom they call cowards) are forced to leave under pressure from media propaganda that bends YOU to their will. These thugs are sharp, and they're playing you like a Steinway.

 

These are the methods and tactics of control wielded by the brand of terrorism that Richard Reid embraced. Reid was about to incinerate a planeload of people and himself when he was apprehended. What more do you FEEEEEEL compelled to understand about the hatred behind his motivation? With this brand of terrorism on the rise, exactly what more do YOU think we need to "understand" about the motivation behind any form of terrorism when it lands on our doorstep, as it did in its most effective form to date on 9/11/01?

 

It has NEVER been as "helpful to understand" the motivation of terrorists as it has been helpful to understand THIS, Dave: When terrorists declare their hatred and express their intent to kill our people and demonstrate that they possess the means to accomplish it, and particularly when they demonstrate a history of making good on their threats, it is the responsibility and the duty of any government to protect its people. This means that when war is declared against us as a Nation by such terrorists, as it has been in our case, we don't hesitate to make war in defense of our lives. Whether this is acceptable to your "softer sensibilities" or not, Dave, war means war. This means having the will to call our enemies what they are, search out and kill murderers of our people, and kill our enemies before we are killed ourselves. Making war in defense of our people is the primary purpose for which our government was originally created, and thank God we had the will to do it so many times in the last century, thereby restoring and preserving the peace for most of the planet for most of the century when we so successfully mustered the courage and the will to act.

 

Now if you can't comprehend this, Dave, and you'd rather play "nice-nice" and go off into endless encounter groups to understand the motivation of bloodthirsty, psychotic, hate-filled murderers while they continue to wage countless suicide bomb attacks, slice off our heads, and perhaps feed us alive and screaming, as Saddam did thousands of Iraqi Citizens, through his purpose-built human shredders while their blood ran in the gutters, I reckon you might be too daft to pound sand. God knows there are thousands of dumbed-down, weak-minded fools who would have us do just that, and I reckon you're one of them. Thankfully, we haven't become so corrupted by propaganda as a Nation that we take our direction yet from those who would lay down in surrender to the threat of annihilation. God willing, that day will never arrive in this country.

 

Picking up the standard street-level propaganda that the Islamo-fascist terrorists need you to continue to swallow to achieve their ends, Dave, you had at one time insisted that Dubya had invaded Iraq to plunder their oil and murder Iraqi Citizens. Now you have evidently modified this slightly to suggest that it's oil PROFITS that have been behind the liberation of Iraq. How do you propose to explain Chevron's significant successful oil exploration test, announced in September at the Jack #2 well in the Gulf of Mexico? This discovery expanded known oil reserves in North America by an estimated 50%. Oil prices dropped nearly overnight. It would appear that our dependence in Iraqi oil just diminished very significantly over the next few hundred years. Take up our eeeeevil dependence on oil with y'er Master of Global Warming Fraud, Algore. His holdings in Occidental Petroleum are substantial. He sat on the board at OP, and maintenance of his family fortune is dependent on Big Oil PROFITS. He doesn't seem too concerned about the future of OIL PROFITS by the "threat" of decreasing our dependence on oil. Being a kingpin of Big Oil himself, Algore may well have calculated that OIL PROFITS will rise with an increase in demand as the supply wanes in compliance with the draconian global restrictions on consumption that he proposes.

 

In the meantime, FREE TRADE with Iraq is currently necessary for the maintenance of our economy, and that's a fact. We are not plundering Iraqi oil, never have, and never will. We are NOT at war to protect oil profits, and that's another fact. Oil PROFITS are largely independent from oil imports, and have not significantly diminished beyond normal variances and fluctuating supply. If you don't like our Nation's dependence on oil, I suggest that you stop using it yourself and show the rest of us the way. Protecting our National interests -- including our economy -- by protecting free trade is NOT eeeeeeeevil, despite all your mindless, stupid brainwashing to the contrary.

Yeah, Dave. That's a healthy perspective. We give terrorists the motivation to kill us, so their aggression on the entire planet is our fault!!!

 

Now when I posted previously, I knew that your reply would likely contain some sick twist of the "blame Bush" hatred that dominates and controls your fevered psyche the same way it dominates and controls Richard Reid's mind and all the terrorists who've been conditioned, like yourself, to think of Dubya as The Great Satan. Sure enough -- Right on cue, you did not disappoint.

 

Now this will certainly be counter-intuitive for anyone who's as brainwashed as you are, but did you imagine, Dave, that an INCREASE in terrorist propaganda denunciations of Bush, or any other Commander in Chief of our Armed Forces, for that matter, is a BAD THING for international security? On the contrary, the time for us and the entire world to get concerned about our Commander in Chief is when terrorist propaganda denunciations DECREASE! Can you comprehend this at all? Has it escaped your attention that the drubbing that Dubya's Party (again - not my party, and one of my least favorite Presidents) got at the polls last week was met with something resembling praise in the usual international propaganda sources?

 

Answer this, Dave: Is Bush also to blame for the countless attacks of terrorism accross the planet, including those here in the USA before he took office? Is Bush to blame for the SECOND attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, and on the plane that crashed killing all on board at the hands of terrorists in Pennsylvania, all of these events occurring mere months into his first term? If you're blaming Bush for that, you might as well throw Katrina on the pile, as oh so many actually HAVE.

 

Now Dave, please consider this: If and when Hitlery occupies the White House again, this time at the official helm of the Klinton II Regime, and we have a remake of the administration that ignored terrorism entirely -- and is therefore responsible for making the threat of terrorism from Islamo-fascism what it is to the world today -- do you dream in your most vivid dreams, Dave, that the threat of terrorism will vanish along with all the supposed "provocation" for it that you claim has been perpetrated by Dubya, as you and the mouthpieces for Islamo-fascist terrorism in the media constantly claim? Upon what basis in reality do you place your trust in such claims by terrorists? Is there anything that the leaders of the most bloodthirsty and unstable, wacked-out terrorist tyrants of the planet say about Dubya that you DON'T accept at face value -- lock stock, and barrel?? You're following their play-book to the letter. These are the same people who believe what Richard Reid believes, who would skin YOU alive and worse, simply for who you are and for what you believe.

 

Who will you put in your hate bucket along with Bush, Dave, two years from now, when Hitlery or the next figurehead of one party or the other is crowned the New Great Satan by organized terrorism and Dubya goes back to his ranch in Crawford to write his memoirs? Here's a hint -- Neither Hitlery or her alternate are likely to use our military to protect our Nation in any fashion resembling the way Dubya has. In this event, encouraged again by this and taking it as another "victory" over The Great Satan, the threat of terrorism will expand and become far closer and more ominous then than it is now, and your attempts to continue to stick Dubya with the blame for terrorism will appear in retrospect even more foolish than they appear today.

 

Yours is a formidably powerful kind of hatred, Dave. It's a willfully blind kind of hatred, the likes of which has to be cultivated and nurtured over the period of a lifetime, developed, and refined to a point where it's powerful enough to dominate the will against all reason, all facts, and all logic, as the terrorists who have fed and inflamed your blackest, most hateful emotions through our own media propaganda. Your hatred dominates your thinking, as it no doubt has your entire lifetime -- just as Islamo-fascists have understood so very well, from five centuries of barbaric manipulation of their own populations with hatred and terrorism. It's the same hatred they've always fed their own people and ingrained in them, and you've lapped it up the same way most of the 3rd world that knows little beyond fear and hate always has. They know no different, and neither do you. I truly feel sorry for you. Because hatred is such a powerful unifying principle in the hands of propagandists, you have been conditioned to fall in line with their thinking. Perhaps you're only a few steps away from officially joining up with them yourself. Richard Reid actually made those last steps. So have many others in this country and in other countries. How long will it be before you take those steps yourself, Dave? I suspect that you posted Reid's words above because you find sympathy -- even truth -- in them, and in his philosophy, if not his actions. Why not show some courage and just come out and say it?

Was the concept of the Colt Peacemaker and the use of it to keep the peace in a previous thread entirely lost on you, Dave, or are you still stuck back in the gutter-level mindset of the '60's with the thuddingly stupid, mindless slogan, "Fighting for peace is like F***ing for virginity"?? If you had any knowledge of history at all and had the ability to extract any wisdom from history, and if you still possessed any ability to think independently, you'd understand that what has always been necessary to make peace as a free Nation is to be ever willing and able to effectively make war in defense of the peace against outside aggression. This is how the USSR was defeated -- without a shot being fired. Most children are capable of understanding this, unless they've been fed a steady diet of hatred, the way organized terrorism feeds its flock and all the gullible who fall prey to it as you have. But I know this is lost on you.

Well, I believe I've layed my views on terrorism on the line here, Dave. You be sure to let me know how tyrranical and imperialistic I am, and how my attitude creates terrorism. Oh, it's serious alright. How much more serious do you want the threat of terrorism to become? It more than can get worse -- it likely will get lots worse. Your mindset a million times over will bring it on and fan the flames, just as it has been doing from the first terrorist attacks. Your Marxian philosophy is dead averywhere on the planet except in the last remaining dregs of Far Left Amerikan Liberalism, Dave -- and whether you recognize it or not -- it will soon run dry in our Nation. NO ONE buys that crap any more, and Pelosi and Schumer are about to learn this the hard way. It's the philosophy of a bygone era, and the wake of death and destruction left behind it is now a monument to its stupidity.

 

You have a choice Dave -- embrace the 6th Century mentality of barbaric Islamo-fascism that threatens the entire planet by laying down and letting it roll over you as Richard Reid chose to do, or you can stand with the rest of the planet and fight it.

 

If you'd rather lay down and accept domination, I wonder if you're actually prepared for the life that Islamo-fascist terrorists have so clearly explained publicly so many times that they have in mind for you, Dave? How do you think you'd fare under Sharia law? For starters, your tongue would be cut out for speaking your mind publicly the way you have on this forum. You would not vote in open elections. You would be forced on the threat of your life to swear allegiance to Islam. You would hear the screams of those who refuse to accept Islam as they choked, coughing up and aspirating carotid and jugular arterial blood gurgling in their throats as their heads were slowly sawed off in the street in front of your house so the image of resistance to tribal Islamic rule is burned forever into your mind. Your wife, forced to wear the burqa in public and and now considered chattel, would suddenty have no more rights than your goats. All information available to you would be designed for your consumption and provided by your new form of tribal government. The new public square would run red with blood, featuring routine limb amputations at regularly appointed times for such offenses as theft, and followed, of course, by the ever-popular beheadings without benefit of trial as we know it, for the most serious infractions of Sharia law.

 

This has been the history of the rise of Islamo-fascist terrorism on this planet, Dave -- whether your hatred has blinded you to it or not. Richard Reid embraced it. Is this what you strive so sympathetically to understand about the nature of the terrorism that publicly threatens your life before it's imposed on you?

 

I eagerly await your response.

 

Ratch

 

Do you have a job, mate?

[Ralph Werner]

Whoa!

 

I'm going back to the Hooters forum - it's way easier on my brain.

[svjj]

Whoa!

 

I'm going back to the Hooters forum - it's way easier on my brain.

 

[docc]

Damn, I'm really not sure I can read that post. But, it is just directed at 'Dave?' Maybe it ain't fer me. Mebbe I would learn something. I'm not even sure what thread this is anymore.

 

Were we talkin' about oil filters or saving the world . . .?

[dlaing]

snip

Should I take it on point by point...that could take a while.

Your insults do not demand answering, you don't answer my questions and you certainly don't admit when you are wrong and I have better things to do....

 

Can you name one time in human history when it was EVER "helpful to understand", acquiesce to, negotiate with, and/or appease the "motivation" of terrorists?

When Ronald Reagan's men negotiated for a delayed release of hostages in the October surprise...