Tighten Up Those Filters, Boys . . .

[Guest Gary Cheek]

Other than not tight to begin with about the only other likely possibility would be a seal that loses it's resiliency when tight(?) hot(?) old(?) or for some reason has insuffificient friction.

Maybe Greg can find out if some of the others were or were not UFI as was the one he knows of. Could be a simple change in seal material or supply source.Maybe batch specific.

It would be nice to find out more about the "failures" before applying any more inductive generalizations.

I got a great deal on an Audi back in the 80s when they had a reputation for self accelerating.

 

I'll keep putting them on the same way I have for the last 40 years. I would sure hate to have a loose hose clamp wreak havoc and find the filter still perfectly tight!

For now I'm still with these guys:QUOTE(Dan M @ Nov 9 2006, 05:37 PM)

 

Exactly. After near 30 years in the car business I can tell you that filters that "come loose" were always loose. Loose, leaky filters that I've seen were usually put on by the car's owner or some snot-nosed kid at a quick oil change place. The only bright side is that if you are not qualified to tighten an oil filter fully then natural selection is probably going to see that you are removed from the gene pool after you decide to do your own brake service.

 

 

 

 

Ditto that, I can't see a filter backing off unless it was installed by a weekend mechanic as he was pouring over his owners manuel looking for proper installation methods and torque settings! Were these filters installed at a shop ...MI or homeowner mr goodwrench.

[dhansen]

I've just finished doing my first oil change on the new to me '01 v11 and I'm really happy to have gotten a heads up on the filters. I've been reading everything I can find here on filters and oil and all of the stuff needed to accomodate the change. Gotta love this group.

 

Figured I'd drop the pan 1st time out just to see what was lurking inside. Everything looked fine as far as I could see. No big bits or chunks in the base. I put the strap wrench on the filter and all but pulled the bike over before it finally came free. Can't imagine that *astard ever backing off on its own. Prefilled the new filter, lubed the gasket and spun it back on. I tightened it more than I'd ever tightened a filter before, about 1-1/4 turns after initial contact, and installed Greg's suggested hose clamp safety.

 

Just for grins I thought I'd spin out the oil filter cover from the pan but couldn't get it to budge. I'm guessing someone used locktite or another sealer on the threads and it will take some heat to set it free. Doesn't really matter since I'm using the hose clamp on the filter.

 

After cleaning the pan I went to put the filter screen back in and noticed the plastic frame that holds the screen is all warped out of shape to the point where it doesn't fully seat in its groove. I shoved it in as far as I could and called it good. Anyone else notice that before? I'll order a new one (wishful thinking?) and replace it next time around.

 

Tomorrow is a bonus day ride for us here in Maine, warm and dry. Can't wait.

[Guest ratchethack]

Tomorrow is a bonus day ride for us here in Maine, warm and dry. Can't wait.

No warpage ever observed on the sump screen frame.

 

Ahhhh, Baxter State Park for the Never To Be Forgotten Classic Eastern Fall Color Tour -- I'll bet it ain't too late yet??

 

If you got a chance to beat the first Nor' Easter, y'er certainly in luck. If not, well, y'er all done until when -- the end of April??

 

Sorry, not gloating here. Just havin' a truly great coupla o' memories. Thanx.

 

Have a great ride.

[Steve G.]

And here I was cursing myself for using the correct torque, and then not being able to get the filter off through the porthole later. I guess I should pat myself on the back. It's nice to have a look inside anyways.

Ciao, Steve

[Greg Field]

I've owned and worked on Guzzis for 21 years. In that time, I bet I've heard of (I'm guessing) 15-20, maybe more, filters backing out and wrecking engines. For most of those years, I was just a very involved Guzzi owner. I fixed my own bikes, hung out with Bob Nolan (the Godfather of Guzzi owners in the Pacific Northwest, and the man who first warned me to use a hose clamp; he said he's seen many come off, since he began fixing Guzzis in 1972), edited the Tips column for the MGNOC News, and hung around a lot of Guzzisti. For the last 16 months, I have worked at the busiest Guzzi dealership in the US. I am the parts manager.

 

Over half of the filter incidences I know of I have heard of since I began working at Moto International. I've now heard of 4 this month, including two in the last two days plus one last week, counting the poster from Florida who posted his experience earlier today. Is the number I've heard of in the last year and month and day because more are occurring, or is it just that I'm more likely to hear about them in my position? I'm guessing it's the latter.

 

Could they all be improperly installed filters? Sure, but that is a guess. You've heard in this thread from two experienced Guzzisti who in the last week--after having installed many Guzzi filters over the years that didn't back off--had their filters back off. Two of the others this month were installed at Guzzi dealerships. If all these were errors, they were all errors made by folks who have at least as much experience and tooling as the vast majority of you here have. If it's a result of error, it's folks just like you making the error. If they can screw up, so can you.

 

Could there be something else going on here, such as a bad batch of filters or whatever? Sure, but again, it's a guess. I'm not gonna call all these guys up and ask what kind of filter. Perhaps the two guys who posted here will tell what kind they used. I've ehard of enough instances over enough years that I'm pretty sure the problem is not a bad batch of filters. I just want folks to know that it happens, and that you can prevent it from happening to you.

 

The only way I know of to be sure is to use a hose clamp. A hose clamp is just a safety to prevent the filter from turning off. It works equally well, no matter if it tends to loosen because the filter wasn't tight enough or whether the loosening is from another cause. Yes, you do have to remember to tighten the hose clamp for it to do any good. No, it can't come off and wreck other parts, unless the trapdoor comes off, and then you have bigger problems to worry about than a hoseclamp in your sump.

 

Please everyone, do as you like. I'm gonna continue to use hose clamps. And I'll try to keep plenty of rod bearings and rod bolts in stock should the unlikely but preventable happen to any of your engines.

[dhansen]

No warpage ever observed on the sump screen frame.

 

Ahhhh, Baxter State Park for the Never To Be Forgotten Classic Eastern Fall Color Tour -- I'll bet it ain't too late yet??

 

If you got a chance to beat the first Nor' Easter, y'er certainly in luck. If not, well, y'er all done until when -- the end of April??

 

Sorry, not gloating here. Just havin' a truly great coupla o' memories. Thanx.

 

Sorry Ratch, the leaves are all gone for this year. We'll no doubt stick to the coast, maybe shoot up to Bar Harbor. (Temps will be at least 10 degrees colder near Baxter.) Wish I was headed for Palomar or over the mountains to Ocotillo Wells. Ah, the good old days...............

 

There is a group riding down to NH on Saturday for an open house at an Italian type shop. Might do that one too. Looks like there will be some nice days next week as well. One of the worst Nor'easters I've seen in over 25 years here came on November 22nd.

 

I have ridden all 12 months of the year on occasion but it doesn't happen often. I surely won't take the V11 out until, as you supposed, the end of April or so. Gotta get the XL250 I picked up running to do the winter tricks.

 

Shoulda snapped a picture of the filter frame before I put it back. I'll do that next time.

[Guest ratchethack]

 

Wish I was headed for Palomar or over the mountains to Ocotillo Wells. Ah, the good old days...............

We'll be thinkin' about y'all in Ocotillo Wells and on Palomar while y'er up in Bah Hahbah.

 

But then there's the Berkshires........ Don't get me started. . . .

 

There ain't NO Fall season like Maine. Enjoy while it lasts!

[dhansen]

We'll be thinkin' about y'all in Ocotillo Wells and on Palomar while y'er up in Bah Hahbah.

 

But then there's the Berkshires........ Don't get me started. . . .

 

There ain't NO Fall season like Maine. Enjoy while it lasts!

 

Oh boy, nostolgia time for both of us. I just spent about an hour on Google maps checking out the old homestead in Jamul and trying to find the old camping areas in Ocotillo Wells and over by Superstition Mountain north of Plaster City. I didn't realize how much things have changed in 30 years.

 

Right in around Ocotillo Wells was a big sand hill called Blow Sand. We used to take the dirt bikes up there at night and run the hill in the lights of the dune buggies (if you were lucky) as they went up. Why I am still alive and more or less able to walk I'll never know. Blow Sand was a challenge with knobbies but the 'ol paddle tire made it a breeze.

 

So I see you've spent a little time in this neck of the woods. Bahaba (spelling is a regional thing ) is normally avoided at all costs but this time of the year it will be all but deserted. For all practical purposes it is winter here now and these few warm days are a treat.

 

Sure didn't mean to sidetrack the thread Greg, kinda got carried away. Thanks Ratch!

[guzzi323]

In the interest of getting more information out there my dilter which came loose was a UNI filter.

 

johnk

[Guest Mattress]

Mother of god! Just read through this thread, much like the one a few months ago. What the heck is the agro about with putting a hose clamp on a filter??

 

It reads like the "prudent" voice versus Mr Guzzi used to walk across the lake como on his way to work and nothing guzzi could be wrong!

 

If filters shouldn't back off, I dont see why some race organizations require you to hose clamp and saftey wire the filter.

 

At McMaster-Carr you can get a constant tension hose clamp that at least not fall off and get sucked up in the oil pump like the fat kid in Willy Wonka's chocolate factory. We use em on our coolant critical lines on diesels.

 

I still don't see how a hose clamp falliing off in there could cause engine failure.

 

 

BTW- I still have a pet theory that an improper operating oil pressure relief valve could cause pressure pulsations that = fatigue/vibration/forces as seen by the filter. Or, stressing the oil filter gasket through pressure spikes so that force/torque is lost on the filter/ filter male fitting. In high speed resolution measurements we have seen significant spikes in diesel engines, usually not present enough to cause damage, but it can occur.

 

Can we put this to bed? Would I be pussy or poser for saftey wiring certain fasteners?

 

On a final note, are timing gears superior to the stock guzzi timing chain? Please comment.

 

And, '89 Mille Gt versus '72 Nouvo Falcone, your choice for a 2000 mile trip? Please comment, I got money on this.

 

Thanks, and sorry for mixing vicoden and Stella Artois last night and posting nonsense, or Scottish.

[dlaing]

Just some points and a question I would like to make.

1. Republicans deserve to lose 50% more of their seats in congress and especially the Presidency, and this would happen if voters were more inteligent.

2. Guzzis vibrate enough that "properly" torqued bolts can shake loose.

3. Guzzi oil filters have oil on every side of the filter seal, possibly making them more likely to loosen.

4. The torque one uses for a car filter might not cut it in a hot vibrating oil bath.

 

Q. Should we have a poll to see what political party people tend to vote for and how it relates to their filter torquing abilities?

[badmotogoozer]

 

2. Guzzis vibrate enough that "properly" torqued bolts can shake loose.

 

I sure enough know this for fact! I have a rather lengthy list of bolts, nuts, footpegs, brackets, etc etc etc - which have elected to abandon ship. Some were even loctited. The blue stuff mind you, not the red. Learned to only use the red on things that I never expect to take apart again...

 

There seems to be a certain RPM which causes bits to resonate - I watched all the nuts on my windscreen screws as they all spun off in unison - fast! Had never taken it apart, it happily went 5K kms. One morning, left the house, two blocks later - screen drops. Saw the nuts start to go, thought I could get home before they fell, but the nuts came off like something out of "Poltergeist".

 

Some who have met my bike believe it is possessed...

 

Rj

[mike wilson]

The only filter I've ever had loosen was an external one, on a car. Noticed the drips, tightened it up. Noticed more drips. Took the filter off. It looked OK to me but I was unhappy about putting it back so got another one. Comparing the two, I could see that the threads on the leaker were not as well formed as the replacement. I can only surmise that heat cycling was allowing the filter to creep loose because the threads were somehow not holding properly.

 

Anyone done any similar comparisons with loosened Guzzi filters?

[mike wilson]

Here's an interesting incident regarding an oil filter coming loose.

 

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bullet..._2___g_cckf.cfm

 

Seems that 20mmx1.5 and 3/4inch 16tpi are very similar. This article tells of a filter of the wrong type being fitted that was difficult to get on and stripped its threads under pressure. If the thread types were reversed, the filter would go on easily but would possibly loosen itself under thermal and shock loading. Feasible?

[Dan M]

Here's an interesting incident regarding an oil filter coming loose.

 

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bullet..._2___g_cckf.cfm

 

Seems that 20mmx1.5 and 3/4inch 16tpi are very similar. This article tells of a filter of the wrong type being fitted that was difficult to get on and stripped its threads under pressure. If the thread types were reversed, the filter would go on easily but would possibly loosen itself under thermal and shock loading. Feasible?

 

 

Do you see? The idiot put the wrong filter on (a plane no less). I'll assume it was self service, I can't imagine a professional aero wrench skimping on something like this.

Almost took himself out of the gene pool. That Darwin was on to something!

 

If you don't remove the pan or don't have the proper tool it is impossible to tighten the filter properly by hand. I think some are doing it anyway and thinking it is "tight enough" Some may install the filter with the gasket dry and it feels tight when it is not.

 

Wrong filter, faulty filter, loose filter, damaged threads on filter mount. That's pretty much it. Over the years I've seen engines with stuck oil pressure relief valves explode oil filters but never unscrew them. I don't think there is some mysterious counterclockwise vortex whirlpool of excessive oil pressure, teaming with the rocking vibration of a v-twin to unscrew these filters.

 

JMHO