Plate or sump?

[steffen]

Hi.

 

I've been a member of this forum for a long time, and last week I took the jump and bought a v11. Now I own a beautiful green v11 sport from 99, with only 11.000 km. (no pics. Roper is the Edison of computers compared to me )

 

It's due for a 10.000 km. service, which I won't be doing myself.

But as a longtime lurker I know, that something has to be done to the sump. Roper has done a plate, but I have seen, that Moto Spezial has a deep v-sump, and now I would like to hear from those, who has the v-sump, if there is advantages to the sump, that will justify the higher price.

Or should I just go ahead and get the roper-plate?

 

Steffen, Denmark

[Alex-Corsa]

Hi.

 

I've been a member of this forum for a long time, and last week I took the jump and bought a v11. Now I own a beautiful green v11 sport from 99, with only 11.000 km. (no pics. Roper is the Edison of computers compared to me )

 

It's due for a 10.000 km. service, which I won't be doing myself.

But as a longtime lurker I know, that something has to be done to the sump. Roper has done a plate, but I have seen, that Moto Spezial has a deep v-sump, and now I would like to hear from those, who has the v-sump, if there is advantages to the sump, that will justify the higher price.

Or should I just go ahead and get the roper-plate?

 

Steffen, Denmark

 

I'd vote for the big V sump, the mighty acceleration Guzzilas are using them so there's no need of other proof that they work right You get more oil capacity in the oil carter so generally better cooling (if you need that too) . Though a plate is of a lower budget and that's what one can concider ,and I guess it can be enough for low PS bikes

[Tom M]

I'd vote for the big V sump, the mighty acceleration Guzzilas are using them so there's no need of other proof that they work right You get more oil capacity in the oil carter so generally better cooling (if you need that too) . Though a plate is of a lower budget and that's what one can concider ,and I guess it can be enough for low PS bikes

 

The external oil filter is a real nice feature too. If you can swing the price I think the deep sump is a great choice.

 

Congratulations on your new bike Steffen!

[Guest Nogbad]

If I was modifying my V11, the DEEP V SUMP gets my vote.

 

Deep V Sump = Serious medicine.

Plate = Medicine man.

[Greg Field]

Deep sump also means losing your oil cooler. I believe, based on the temps I see on my thermostat dipstick, that you're better off with an oil cooler than without one.

[richard100t]

Deep sump also means losing your oil cooler. I believe, based on the temps I see on my thermostat dipstick, that you're better off with an oil cooler than without one.

Wouldnt the extra oil in the deeper sump also help to keep the oil cooler?

[pete roper]

 

Deep V Sump = Serious medicine.

Plate = Medicine man.

 

Am I allowed to respond to this or will I just be accused of a shameless spamming excersise based on the desire for power boat purchase?

 

Pete

[Tom M]

Am I allowed to respond to this or will I just be accused of a shameless spamming excersise based on the desire for power boat purchase?

 

Pete

 

Feel free to respond there captain.

 

Have you picked a name your yacht yet?

[pete roper]

 

Have you picked a name your yacht yet?

 

Yup, she's going to be called 'Flying Cloud' after the 1870's tea clipper of the same name, sister ship to the Cutty Sark which is on display in Greenwich in London. Like a Daytona RS probably the acme of the design of a product of it's class, it's just it's class was wind driven commercial sailing vessels .

 

Pete.

[BrianG]

Do those deep-sump kits include a pick-up extension?? If they don't, one isn't gaining anything in terms of the oil starvation issue, then, are they??

[Guest Mattress]

It's a shame you can't run the stock oil cooler on the deep sump. Was there no provision for it? Is it possible to make you own routing?

 

I'd be leery of ditching the oil cooler, especially if you don't wire in a gauge you can monitor during flight. I think it was 03+ models that have oil cooled pistons. A fairly low tech piston cooling as the spray comes from the small end of the rod, rather than dedicated jets. Still, if you look at piston literature, when you go to oil cooled pistons, something like 40%+ of piston heat goes through the crown to the oil, rather than through the skirt & rings to the case & coolant (air). Without oil cooled pistons your powerstroke diesel would be a power "smoked". Piston casting alloys decline rapidly in strength above 200°C.

 

I think the fact Guzzi sells an air-oil cooled engine of its displacement & power, while meeting emissions, is quite amazing.

 

Yes I know BMW has higher hp/l. But BMW also spent $250 million on development of "just" an aluminum engine main bearing ladder frame, with cast in place magnesium features for one of its new I6 car engines. They got the money to throw around.

 

I fear eventually the Big Brother will make air-oil cooling obsolete in my lifetime.

[Greg Field]

The deep sump replaces all the stuff below the bottom of the engine block, including the overhead pickup and cooler and filter plumbing. It sucks oil from the floor of the pan, just like the older Guzzi sumps, so the chance of exposing the pickup under acceleration is minimal.

[steffen]

Thanks to all for the replies.

 

As I read the answers, the best solution might be the deep sump. I don't worry that much about heating as I live in Denmark, and it's bloody cold most of the time (not to turn it into a "Global Warming Thread", but I would like some more of that, because it's only like 10 deg. celcius right now. On the other hand, with more global warming, the whole country will be flooded, and then I'll have to ask Roper to lend me his boat -with crew ).

But the sump is more than three times as expensive as the plate.

 

The best advantages to the plate is: It works. It's much cheaper. And I get to support mr. Roper's excessive lifestyle. What's not to like

 

I'm not ready for my final verdict yet.

 

Steffen

[pete roper]

Oh Boy! Do I really want to do this? Yes I do. Lets get people really riled up and try and slay a few sacred cows.

 

To do this we have to go back a LONG way.

 

The Moto Spezial deep sump is not a new design. It is at least 20 years old, maybe older, I don't know, but I have pics of a Tony Foale spineframe from about '84-'85 built for the proprietor of Motomecca in London that sports one of these sumps. So if you're willing to accept the design is that old lets look at why it might of been thought of in the first place.

 

Back then pushrod Guzzis were still being raced fairly seriously in some events, most noticeably by die-hard privateers in Endurance and BOTT, (Battle of the twins.). As early as the early '70's Guzzis were always retiring from races with what were euphemistically described as 'Oiling Problems'. What these consisted of was the oil that was supposed to be in the crankcase being pumped out of the breather system to the outside world. The reason for this is because the crankcase simply wasn't big enough to cope with the pressurisation caused by blow by at high RPM so a lot of oil in droplet form was being expelled with the gas into the breather and condensor system and it wasn't adequate to cope with it so the breather system was overwhelmed and the oil ended up being expelled into the overflow/catch bottle until that either overflowed over the outside of the bike or the engine became so bereft of lubricant that it seized a bearing.

 

The only ways to prevent this were to either a.) increase the volume of the crankcase so the pumping action was less extreme or b.) move the level of the oil away from the spinning crank so that windage would be less likely to pick oil up and hold it in suspension so the proportion of oil to gas expelled from the case was less and the breather/condensor system wasn't overwhelmed.

 

Adding a sump extension, (as Guzzi did from the Mk III on.) while NOT increasing the volume of oil in the engine achieved both these ends. As long as an engine, even one with larger displacement to a point, was run with a sump extension in everyday 'Sportsmans-like' riding the problem is cured. At the same time Guzzi swapped from the original inadequate breather/condensor box to using the larger volume of the frame spine as a condensor. This also helped. Later models also had the oil condensate return routed to the rocker covers rather than the head and then, on the spineframes the decision was made that the condensor volume of the frame was adequate to cope with a return to direct oil return to the sump. I personally think was unwise but we won't go there now.

 

OK, so that dealt with the problems of the *Exterior Lubrication* and for road use this sytem was, and remains, fine on Tonti frame models. Racing was a different matter.......

 

The Tonti frame is a wonderful piece of architechture, but it is a rotten frame for *racing*. it's steering geometry is such that it is slow to turn, it's rake angle is high making it very stable but it's a bear to push into a corner. Short of serious frame modification, (Nobody had thought of adjustable stering head bearings back then.) the only real way to quicken up the steering was to drop the forks through the yokes about a mile and fit a sodding great steering damper for the straights ( e've been here on our race bike!). The problem is that if you drop the forks too far the bloody sump rubs on the road when you toss it into a bend! To cut a long story short if you build a 'V' shaped sump this problem goes away. Make the sump extra deep in the middle to compensate, (look at the bottom of the fairing on a Moto GP bike, you can go pretty deep on a race track!) and you can keep the extra volume for the case and keep the oil further away from the crank. Brilliant! The extra surface area alo helped with cooling, something that may well be neccessary on an air cooled bike being thrashed mercilessly to within an inch of it's life in hot conditions.

 

Then there were two MAJOR changes in the Guzzi range. Firstly there was the adoption of Tony Foale's spineframe design. This in itself was not a *major* issue as the rake and trail figures remained remarkably similar. It was still, even by the standards of the day, antedeluvian. The second, far more critical for this story, arrival was the coming of Toddero's Hi-Cam engine. These engines have two major *faults*. 1.) they carry their weight a fair bit higher and 2.) they run HOT! So bloody hot that their launch was posponed for years while they sorted out an alloy that was affordable enough and had the correct co-efficient of expansion that it didn't crack or seize cams through warpage. Even when finally launched Hi-Cam engines had/have a distessing tendency to crack heads if poorly tuned in hot weather. A situation not helped by the need for ever leaner fueling to meet pollution regs leading to higher head temperatures.

 

So Guzzi had to do something, not for the *track*, for high speed work the heads get more than adequate cooling. it's the low speed stuff that caused the problems. Answer? Rather than simply buying in the rights for the deep sump, (Just as they didn't simply buy in *standard* RAM clutches for Scuras ) they went and designed the 'Broad Sump' (which also gave them the opportunity to make the (UFI ) oil filter *Accessible* via that f@cking manhole we all love to hate) with the neccessary munt in the *spacer* to fit the thermostat, filter and all the plumbing for the cooler. It DID have one other great advantage though. It was shallower, which meant that you could lean the old nail over a good bit further as long as you were on the gas! It still isn't brilliant on a Daytona though as the scraped away sump on the RS in my workshop attests. it's owner rides it hard enough but he hasn't got sticky rubber in it and it still gets scraped. BUT, it had the oil cooler, thermostatically controlled, and at anything much over walking pace it really does help. The thermostat is very important. Not so much to help keep the bike cool in most situations but to keep it hot!

 

Certainly when the oil gets hot in slow moving city traffic type situations the thermostat opening will allow the oil to return to acceptable temperaures much earlier once the traffic clears and in reall high speed/hot day situations it will help too but to me it's main benefit is to take the cooler OUT of the equation when it isn't needed, most specifically in wet conditions. One of my Guzzis has an oil temperture guage that sits on the handlebars, it's sensor is in the drain plug for the sump. When it rains the oil temperature will drop from 120*C to 30*C in less than three minutes in 30*C ambient. In those conditions you DON'T need a cooler in the equation.

 

OK. That's the history lesson. I don't know if I'm limited on charachter numbers for posts on this board but I'll send this now and then continue with the eveolution of the V11 series and why I actually think a sloppage sheet is better than a deep sump for V11's in the next post.

 

Pete

[pete roper]

OK, so moving right along to the V11 series and the later 1100 Sports. Using my reasoning these machines didn't really need the oil cooler as they were still using the sh!tty old pushrod donk, right? Right! Why don't the Cali's use it? 'Cos they don't need it. There are plenty of Racing Guzzis around that produce more HP, (and therefore more waste heat.) than a Cali that don't run coolers either but a cooler has bling factor, the new sump and assorted shyte isn't *much* more expensive and it provides a tie to the earlier *sporting* range and, yes, in certain circumstances the buggers will run hot and the sooner you cool 'em down the better. AND you keep the eternally accessible filter that Guzzi owners have pissed and moaned about for years!

 

BUT! The broad sump design has this one, glaring flaw. The problem of oil pick-up exposure under hard acceleration in some situations.

 

Early V11's had a shorter wheelbase than the Tonti's and early Spines. This along with more modern steering geometry made the bike a lot more flickable and meant that the engine could be lowered in relation to the road a bit and still have the same lean angles before you started rubbing the sump away. A shorter bike also meant you could have a better chance of pulling a mono if you wished which really didn't help the oiling issue. It also meant that the same ournos who'd been moaning for years about how Guzzis handled like supertankers went spastic and complained that the V11 didn't *feel* like a Guzzi. Unfortunately this was taken on board and the spine was extended. One of the worst moves ever in my book, but I digress. The lowered engine, (Which remained with the later-'Long Frame' bikes.) meant that broad sump was here to stay unless the whole sorry business was re-thought, which it now has been with the Griso/Breva etc. Yes, you can fit a deep sump to your V11 but it will bring the bottom of the sump closer to the pavement. Fine on a racetrack but on the road it has risks, especially if you have to gutter-jump regularly. The deep sump also has it's filter out the front exposed to any wayward crap that may be spat off the road or vulnerable to jagging on *things*. No, I've never heard of this happening on a Guzzi but I have seen it on Japanese bikes with forward facing filters. The main issues though are the loss of the thermostat in the oiling system adn the fact that regardless of pick-up exposure the oil is still free to slosh around in the sump willy-nilly which will encourage aeration of the oil and saturation of the gas within the case with particulate oil. The really keen could also make a point of the increased frictional losses and hence power losses caused by the effects of windage but to be honest in any ordinary motor? You'd never notice.

 

To finally get on to my product.

 

1.) It's simple.

 

2.) It's elegant.

 

3.) It's cheap.

 

4.) It works!

 

1.) The plate is designed to address one problem and one only. That is to inhibit, not prevent, the rearward movement of oil under hard acceleration. All it has to do is prevent pick-up exposure, nothing more nothing less. It has added benefits in that because the static level of the oil is below the plate it helps prevent windage by the cyclonic forces associated with the rapidly spinning crank, will encourage rapid oil return by having another face on which the oil will stick via surface tension rather than working the oil in the sump into a froth, and will de-aerate the oil at the same time meaning the oil in the sump will have less air and will dump heat more effectively through the sump walls, (Air being a good insulator will inhibit the dumping of heat.) Less aerated oil in the sump will ensure a better and more consistent supply of oil, rather than an oil/air amalgam to the oil pump which in turn can work more effectively delivering a liquid rather than a fluid froth. Oil is a good lubricant and coolant, an oil/air amalgam is not.

 

2.) It is incredibly simple. It is also non-invasive in terms of appearance, (You'd hardly know it was there, (Sorry, no bling factor and nowhere for me to put my name prominently so flocks of nieve drones can shower me with riches trying to purchase their own!). It also allows you to keep the entire oil cooler/thermostat, internal filter business for oil temperature control, whetgher you think that is heat shedding or containing.

 

3.) It's cheaper by far than a deep V sump. As stated above my plate has a bling factor of 0. A dirty great big alloy casting speaks volumes. Volumes of what I'm not sure?

 

4.) Not everybody has problems with pick-up exposure. There are a myriad of reasons why many people may never see the 'Oil light flicker of death'. Certainly over-filling the sump by using the dipstick just resting on the threads rather than screwed in and always keeping the oil at the 'Full' mark may be perfectly adequate for most people at most times. The thing is if you DO get your oil light coming on under hard acceleration the damage starts immediately. Not after a few times or a few minutes, it starts within tenths of seconds. Have you priced a V11 crank recently? My plate, if correctly installed and if the oil level is filled correctly, prevents that situation occuring. I don't own a 'Broad Sump' model, (If I did it would either be a Daytona RS or a 'Short Frame' V11.) I'd fit one of my plates.

 

As I stated in a previous thread, I didn't do this because I expected to make outrageous sums of money out of it. I did it because I had the time, the motive and the opportunity. In the minds of some that seems to be a crime in itself.

 

The 'V' sump is a fine idea, sorry, but in this application my idea is better. If you can't get your head around the thought that it's possible for a fat, middle aged bloke in a tin shed in a small outback town in Australia to come up with a better idea than a teutonic solution to a completely separate set problems on a *similar* motor 25 years ago being used for completely different purposes in a different motorcycle then obviously I'll never convince you. If though you read this and think about it you may find it makes sense.

 

I may be objectionable to some, I think this is mainly down to cultural differences, good grief there are plenty of threads on this, (And other.) boards that really give me the screaming shits. The fact remains that although I may not be the shiniest spanner in the box I'm actually bloody good at what I do. Cheap, simple sollutions to problems are almost always the best. I pride myself on being able to explain what I mean. I hope that this little excursion will of done that here.

 

OK, into the foxhole.

 

Pete

 

(Still got six years on Gary )