Plate or sump?

[steffen]

Apparently I needed the history lesson. Thanks.

 

I'll send you a mail.

 

Steffen

[Guest ratchethack]

OK, into the foxhole.

 

Pete

 

(Still got six years on Gary )

And y'got a few on me too -- but not all that many.

 

Many thanks for another most excellent education, Pete.

 

Hmmm. Y'er in possession of a super-abundant wealth of Guzzi knowledge and lore, a prodigious gift for description and story-telling far beyond that of most -- dare I suggest any? -- authors in y'er field, the requisite passion, AND it looks like you might've even mastered the use of a keyboard far beyond the "hunt n' peck" of many well-published authors. . . . . .

 

So when might we expect a properly published reference work to round out "the complete works" to take its place on the bookshelf next to the most valued offerings of Dave R. and Greg F.?!

 

The royalties might even cover slip fees in some croc-infested billabong f'er Flying Cloud. . . . .

 

Just a hopeful thought.

 

- Cdr. Hatchracket

[Tom M]

Yup, she's going to be called 'Flying Cloud' after the 1870's tea clipper of the same name, sister ship to the Cutty Sark which is on display in Greenwich in London. Like a Daytona RS probably the acme of the design of a product of it's class, it's just it's class was wind driven commercial sailing vessels .

 

Pete.

 

 

I was expecting something more along the lines of 'Sea Yak'

 

Thanks for the deep sump vs slop sheet info.

[gh67]

So when might we expect a properly published reference work to round out "the complete works" to take its place on the bookshelf next to the most valued offerings of Dave R. and Greg F.?!

I 2nd that! Though the book would have to retain Pete's unique style and humor. Heck, we should just add a new forum category and consolidate Dr. Roper's "preachings" so they are easy to find.

 

Keep 'em up coming Pete. Thanks!

 

Jason

[pete roper]

When ever I write something like that I invariably end up getting called a know-it-all and/or a blowhard. If I do try and explain relatively complex systems in simple, laymans language in an easily understood way I tend to get sneered at for being simplistic and not having a full grasp of the facts. If I try to take a holistic overview rather than treating each problem as an individual 'Stand Alone' issue I get accused of obfuscating and trying to muddy the waters.

 

Not really a lot of encouragement to go to the bother of writing a book is there?

 

For technical stuff that I've written I suggest nipping over to the Guzzitech Dk site. Jens and Rolf have kindly vollunteered to host my more sensible ramblings there. There are also lots of other interesting articles by people probably more knowledgeable than me, it's all free and it's all downloadable at the touch of a button. I also have Guzzi stuff published on the US Guzzitech site and a variety of other websites and forums on the net. The only reward I've ever got for this sometimes not inconsiderable effort is the occasional email or board message thanking me for going to the trouble. When that happens it's very nice but it's not why I do it. As with the plates I have time, motive and opportunity . I truly believe that by my own, admittedly perverse, standards Guzzi design and build the BEST motorbikes in the world. The problem is that their continuous impecuniousness means that corners have sometimes been cut leading to problems that have over the years destroyed their reputation.

 

The broad sump was one such cheapskate sollution, I'm sure that if Toddero had been given a bigger budget he could of designed something far better, he was a very clever man, albeit an old one, by the time he designed the Hi-Cam. The fact that Guzzi actually use the newly designed sump of the Breva/Griso engines as a major selling point shows that they recognised, (Maybe belatedly.) that there was a problem. As it is over the years there have been many many sollutions to factory created problems. Both the deep 'V' sump and the sloppage sheet are fine examples of these. Not the first and probably not the last, but certainly up until now it has been the knowledge and passion of enthusiasts as often as the factory that have supplied sollutions to problems when they have occured. If you can't stand the idea of maybe having to change or modify things to get the bike to suit you or, if you do want to, expect to be able to buy what you need from a glossy catalog from a vast and efficient dealer network then I think perhaps you've bought the wrong machine. Owning a Guzzi will always be harder work than owning a Honda or a Harley. For some that effort isn't worth it. For those who DO have the passion and commitment though the rewards will more than outweigh the frustrations. At least that's the way it's been for me for the last 27 years!

 

 

Pete

[Guest ratchethack]

When ever I write something like that I invariably end up getting called a know-it-all and/or a blowhard. If I do try and explain relatively complex systems in simple, laymans language in an easily understood way I tend to get sneered at for being simplistic and not having a full grasp of the facts. If I try to take a holistic overview rather than treating each problem as an individual 'Stand Alone' issue I get accused of obfuscating and trying to muddy the waters.

 

Not really a lot of encouragement to go to the bother of writing a book is there?

Accusations?! Pete Roper fold to intimidation from the wankers in the peanut gallery?!?!?!?

 

In the immortal words of Rumpole of The Old Bailey, "Heaven forefend!"

 

Pete, since when has anyone been able to speak knowledgeably and truthfully about anything without drawing mortar barrages and RPG's from every humptydoofus within earshot with his own perverse, sorry little axe to grind and absolutely nothing of value to offer -- or lose?!?!? I reckon if Richardson and Field can weather the slings and arrows, it oughta be a slice o' cherry pie f'er the likes o' y'erself. . . . . .

 

Y'er post above -- exactly as written -- would make a perfectly suitable preface to any book written in y'er unmistakable style on y'er favorite subject. If it's not too much of a stretch, I imagine Dave and Greg might do a bang-up job on a foreword. I reckon if you were to give it anything approaching a half-focused effort, Pete, it'd be something that most o' us (here anyway!) would find more'n irresistible - scratch that - make that MANDADORY!

 

OK, that's the last I'm gonna say on this.

[dlaing]

I pride myself on being able to explain what I mean. I hope that this little excursion will of done that here.

 

OK, into the foxhole.

 

Fire in the hole!!!!

 

Point one:

In the interest of constructive criticism, you said

"1.) The plate is designed to address one problem and one only. That is to inhibit, not prevent, the rearward movement of oil under hard acceleration. All it has to do is prevent pick-up exposure, nothing more nothing less. It has added benefits in that because the static level of the oil is below the plate it helps prevent windage by the cyclonic forces associated with..."

In my opinion you designed it to address two problems, but of course, the sloppage was the primary problem and the windage less of a problem.

If sloppage was the only problem being addressed by design, than you could have trimmed much less tightly in the center, especially in the vicinity of the spinning crank.

 

Point two:

When you said,

"If you can't get your head around the thought that it's possible for a fat, middle aged bloke in a tin shed in a small outback town in Australia to come up with a better idea than a teutonic solution to a completely separate set problems on a *similar* motor 25 years ago being used for completely different purposes in a different motorcycle then obviously I'll never convince you. If though you read this and think about it you may find it makes sense."

it sounded to me like you invented putting windage plates on Guzzis.

Is this true or am I reading too much into you coming"...up with a better idea"?

 

Apologies in advance as I am not here to make enemies, although I seem to have a knack for it in a world of right wingers, where I define most Demorats as right wing.

I just believe in pursuing the truth.

I hope you understand.

FWIW Despite my criticism, I think most of us would agree that your experience and ability and effort make for the most valuable posts (save your politics on seals) on any Guzzi forum. Thank You.

[pete roper]

If sloppage was the only problem being addressed by design, than you could have trimmed much less tightly in the center, especially in the vicinity of the spinning crank.

 

Point two:

it sounded to me like you invented putting windage plates on Guzzis.

Is this true or am I reading too much into you coming"...up with a better idea"?

 

Apologies in advance as I am not here to make enemies, although I seem to have a knack for it in a world of right wingers,

 

If I trimmed it closer to the filter/thermo housing and OPR valve I was worried about having enough space for oil return to the sump. Hence the wide clearances.

 

I have NEVER suggested I invented their use in Guzzis but to the best of my knowledge I'm the only person who has designed and manufactured a 'Sloppage Sheet' for the 'Broad Sump' models and the windage benefits ARE secondary to the original intention.

 

As for right wingers? If you're implying my views lean towards the right of the spectrum?? (ROFL!) Mate you are just SO wrong!!!!!

 

Pete

 

Pete

[dlaing]

If I trimmed it closer to the filter/thermo housing and OPR valve I was worried about having enough space for oil return to the sump. Hence the wide clearances.

 

I have NEVER suggested I invented their use in Guzzis but to the best of my knowledge I'm the only person who has designed and manufactured a 'Sloppage Sheet' for the 'Broad Sump' models and the windage benefits ARE secondary to the original intention.

 

As for right wingers? If you're implying my views lean towards the right of the spectrum?? (ROFL!) Mate you are just SO wrong!!!!!

 

Pete

 

Pete

Thanks for the clarification, that is all I wanted. Glad I didn't bump your blood pressure.

I wasn't suggesting YOU were right wing....just everyone else I seem to argue with here, when it has nothing to do with Guzzis. Of course some of them are in denial of being right wing. <_>

Supporting clubbing seals is about the only right wing trait I have seen from you.

I'd love to get you ranting about America's resident president.

[mike wilson]

Yup, she's going to be called 'Flying Cloud' after the 1870's tea clipper of the same name, sister ship to the Cutty Sark which is on display in Greenwich in London. Like a Daytona RS probably the acme of the design of a product of it's class, it's just it's class was wind driven commercial sailing vessels .

 

Pete.

 

Wasn't that the name of Ted Heath's yacht? Was he a secret Guzzista?

[mike wilson]

Morning Cloud. He must have been a Harley rider. Possibly a pink one.

[Greg Field]

I have NEVER suggested I invented their use in Guzzis but to the best of my knowledge I'm the only person who has designed and manufactured a 'Sloppage Sheet' for the 'Broad Sump' models and the windage benefits ARE secondary to the original intention.

 

 

Ha! I did one for Enzo/Nemo's bike several years ago. For the record, it was made by cutting additional holes in one of Roper's windage plates for a Tonti model. That plate is, in fact, what made his bike so blisteringly fast, not those ridiculous Garter Snake pipes.

[guzzijack]

Ha! I did one for Enzo/Nemo's bike several years ago. For the record, it was made by cutting additional holes in one of Roper's windage plates for a Tonti model. That plate is, in fact, what made his bike so blisteringly fast, not those ridiculous Garter Snake pipes.

 

And there was I thinking it was his inflated ego and misinterpretation of what qualifies as 'fast riding' that drives that thing along My mistake <_>

[Guest ratchethack]

Yup, she's going to be called 'Flying Cloud' after the 1870's tea clipper of the same name, sister ship to the Cutty Sark which is on display in Greenwich in London. Like a Daytona RS probably the acme of the design of a product of it's class, it's just it's class was wind driven commercial sailing vessels .

 

Pete.

 

Hey Pete -- With all the "early Winter" animosity rampaging hereabouts lately, I hope you don't get the idea I'm having a go. But I looked up Flying Cloud and Cutty Sark (just f'er grins, being a bit of an old salt meself), and discovered they couldn't have been sister ships, though they were both of the same era, design and construction.

 

By the Christening of Cutty Sark at Dumbarton, Flying Cloud , built in Boston, had prematurely and inexplicably fallen upon hard times and was within a few years of being burned for retrieval of scrap metal fittings.

 

Cutty Sark

 

On the afternoon of Monday, 22nd November 1869, a beautiful little clipper ship of 963 tons gross was launched at Dumbarton on the River Leven. On that day, she was given a name that was to become renowned throughout the seafaring world.

 

Cutty Sark was built for John 'Jock' Willis, a seasoned sailing ship master who had taken over his father’s firm of ship owners in the port of London. Here he became better known as "White Hat Willis" because he always wore a white top hat. His ambition was for Cutty Sark to be the fastest ship in the annual race to bring home the first of the new season's tea from China.

 

The ship was designed by Hercules Linton, a partner in the Dumbarton firm of Scott & Linton. It is believed that he moulded the bowlines of Willis's earlier vessel, The Tweed into the midship attributes of Firth of Forth fishing boats, creating a beautiful new hull shape that was stronger, could take more sail, and be driven harder than any other.

 

The company had never built a ship of this size before and ran into financial difficulties, eventually going bankrupt before the ship was completed. The final details of the fitting out had to be completed by William Denny & Brothers, Scott & Linton’s landlords and the guarantors for the completion of the work on the original contract.

Hercules Linton

The ship was towed to Greenock for final work on her masts and rigging. She was then brought to London to load her first cargo for China.

 

The Cutty Sark is 280ft (85.4m) long overall and her beam measures 35ft (11m). Her moulded depth is 22.5ft (6.7m) and she weighs 963 tons (978.5 tonnes) gross. The height of the main mast from the main deck to the top is 152ft.

 

 

Flying Cloud

 

An extreme clipper launched April 15, 1851, at the shipyard of Donald McKay, East Boston, for Enoch Train, Boston.

 

The Boston Daily Atlas, April 25, 1851

 

If great length, sharpness of ends, with proportionate breadth and depth, conduce to speed, the Flying Cloud must be uncommonly swift, for in all these she is great. Her length on the keel is 208 feet, on deck 225, and over all, from the knight heads to the taffrail, 235 - extreme breadth of beam 41 feet, depth of hold 21½, including 7 feet 8 inches height of between-decks, dead-rise at half floor 20 inches, rounding of sides 6 inches, and sheer about 3 feet.

 

She left New York on June 2, 1851, arriving in San Francisco in 89 days and 21 hours under the command of Captain Josiah Perkins Cressey. In 1853, she raced the Hornet to San Francisco, arriving in 105 days, just forty-five minutes after that clipper.

 

Daily Alta California

 

RACE BETWEEN THE SUN AND THE CLIPPER FLYING CLOUD.—The National Intelligencer says that the clipper Flying Cloud, Capt. Cressey, who is operating with Lieut. Maury in his system of observations for the wind and current charts, on her last voyage from San Francisco for the Sandwich Islands, which she accomplished in 8 days, carried skysails all the way, and averaged 256 miles a day. She was steering west in chase of the setting sun, and actually gained 20 minutes upon old Sol daily, for, in consequence of her great speed, each one of those 8 days was about 20 minutes longer than it was to any one at Washington, who remained at home stationery.

 

APRIL 20th, 1854.—"The clipper ship Flying Cloud arrived at San Francisco from New York, having accomplished the voyage in 89 days, 8 hours. This is the quickest passage recorded as having been made by a sailing vessel between the ports named. On a former occasion, the Flying Cloud made the same voyage in 89 days, 21 hours."

 

The story of Flying Cloud is exciting in itself, but equally intriguing is the fact that the navigator was a woman -- the Captain's wife, Eleanor Cressey. Remarkable for being a functioning female member of the clipper's crew, she was also an inspired navigator. Her skills are considered to be a major factor in the ship's safe and swift passages. A native of Marblehead, Mass., Mrs. Cressey learned navigation from her father, a successful captain in the coastal schooner trade. When she married Josiah Perkins Cressey in 1841, he was master of the Oneida, plying the China trade and wishing for a faster vessel. She sailed with him throughout his long career.

 

Flying Cloud became part of the "Black Ball Line" and it seems she never reached San Francisco again. In 1874, she was condemned and sold, then burned in 1875 for her copper and metal fastenings, a sad end to this elegant vessel.

 

Flying Cloud

[docc]

 

 

Later models also had the oil condensate return routed to the rocker covers rather than the head and then, on the spineframes the decision was made that the condensor volume of the frame was adequate to cope with a return to direct oil return to the sump. I personally think was unwise but we won't go there now.

 

 

 

Pete

 

 

OK, well all this being that let's go 'there' now . . .