Plate or sump?

[pete roper]

Hey Pete -- With all the "early Winter" animosity rampaging hereabouts lately, I hope you don't get the idea I'm having a go. But I looked up Flying Cloud and Cutty Sark (just f'er grins, being a bit of an old salt meself), and discovered they couldn't have been sister ships, though they were both of the same era, design and construction.

 

(Deleted a whole load of silly sailing boat munt most of you aren't in the least bit interested in )

 

Dorry Docc. I simply assumed that that to all readers here any sailing vessel would be seen as the same as any other sailing vessel and therefore, since the two were roughly the same period they could be classified as 'Sister Ships'.

 

The Boston Clippers were and remain the fastest commercial sailing vessels ever built. One of them I belive holds the hour record with a speed of something like 24 Knots which equates to well nigh 30MPH. (This is from memory, it could of been faster but it certainly wasn't slower.). Very much like a racing motorbike they were sleek, low, light, (Generally constructed of pine or spruce which meant they didn't have a long life but by golly they went like f@ck!) and had the sole design requirement that they got from A to B pretty damn quick! (Pre Panama canal the quickest way from NY to SF as via the Horn.) You Yanks built a mean sailing ship!

 

Once sail had to compete with steam it was really an endgame, Sail was doomed. The last great concourse of sailing ships operating commercially was araigned in the Spencer Gulf off South Australia in 1938. Long after they were unprofitable anywhere else the remoteness and primitive conditions in SA were conducive to sail still being profitable in certain circumstances. Between the wars Gustaff Erikson bought up every large, square rigged Ship or Barque, (You know the difference? ) manned them with small crews, sailed them to Oz from Europe in ballast and then shipped back grain. The second world war finally closed that chapter of maritime life, the only big square rigged vessels remaining are training ships, all fitted with auxilliary motors and are pale imitations of the great commercial vessels of 120 years ago.

 

My fascination with sail sprang from a print of a painting that used to hang in the hallway of my grandfather's house just outside Southampton. (Grandad was RN through and through. He did his training under sail and was sunk at Jutland when he was but a cabin boy. In WW II he was sunk at least twice, once on Escort duty during the Battle of the Atlantic and once (I think.) in the Pacific theatre, he was commander both times and they still kept giving him ships!!!! ) It is the one item I have inherited and treasured although it is still in England. It is a depiction of Flying Cloud running before something like a force 8 gale and the picture is actually absurd. There is no way in the world any ship would be carrying anything more than topgallants in the square in that sort of breeze but the picture depicts her with flying royals and stunsails! It's obviously an impossible dream but as an epitome of the romance of sail it is an exemplar! Reality was of course a lot different, life at sea in those years was cold, uncivilized and often brutish and short. I still sometimes wistfully think of what might have been if I'd been born a hundred years earlier......

 

It's all bollocks of course!

 

OK, normal service can now be resumed!

 

Pete

[dlaing]

Reality was of course a lot different, life at sea in those years was cold, uncivilized and often brutish and short. I still sometimes wistfully think of what might have been if I'd been born a hundred years earlier......

 

Grandpa probably invented windage plates for sealing up the bung holes of the bean eaters living below deck.

You wouldn't catch me on one of those boats without Goretex®, Polartec® and a Thermos® of Peet's Coffee®

[mike wilson]

You would be suprised what a pint of grog (overproof rum diluted to 40% alcohol) and the bosun's knot end can accomplish......

[dhansen]

The Boston Clippers were and remain the fastest commercial sailing vessels ever built. One of them I belive holds the hour record with a speed of something like 24 Knots which equates to well nigh 30MPH. (This is from memory, it could of been faster but it certainly wasn't slower.).

 

Hey Pete, I'm not sure what their ultimate hull speed would have been but here is a comment on the fastest clippership's performance and some background on one of the fastest, the Red Jacket, which was built right here in my area. (From the internet).

 

The extreme clipper ship Red Jacket was designed by Samuel H. Pook and built by George Thomas at Rocklane, Maine. She was launched November 2, 1853 and towed to New York to receive spars and rigging.

 

The maiden voyage of the Red Jacket is one of the most famous in clipper ship annals. Captain Asa Eldridge, a Cape Cod skipper of world wide reputation, was in command and she left New York on January 11, 1854, bound for Liverpool. Through the fearsome winter gales of the North Atlantic with snow, hail or rain every day, the Red Jacket tore along carrying every bit of canvas she could wear. Exactly 13 days, 1 hour and 25 minutes later she dropped her hook in Liverpool Harbor, an all time record smashing run. During this voyage she logged 413 sea miles in 24 hours, thereby becoming one of the seven fastest sailing ships in history. The other six that logged over 400 miles in 24 hours were: Flying Cloud, Great Republic, Donald McKay, Lightning, James Baines, and Sovereign of the Seas.

 

There are some that dispute the exact times of the Atlantic crossing mentioned above and whether or not Red Jacket should be credited with the record but there is no argument that she was one of the fastest. A 400 mile day equals a little over 16mph average speed.

 

Once sail had to compete with steam it was really an endgame, Sail was doomed. The last great concourse of sailing ships operating commercially was araigned in the Spencer Gulf off South Australia in 1938. Long after they were unprofitable anywhere else the remoteness and primitive conditions in SA were conducive to sail still being profitable in certain circumstances. Between the wars Gustaff Erikson bought up every large, square rigged Ship or Barque, (You know the difference? ) manned them with small crews, sailed them to Oz from Europe in ballast and then shipped back grain. The second world war finally closed that chapter of maritime life, the only big square rigged vessels remaining are training ships, all fitted with auxilliary motors and are pale imitations of the great commercial vessels of 120 years ago.

 

My dad was in the Danish Merchant Marine and often sailed your waters before the war. I've several photos he took of old clipper ships in southern ports just before WWII. Very interesting indeed.

 

Dennis in Maine.

[Richard]

Between the wars Gustaff Erikson bought up every large, square rigged Ship or Barque, (You know the difference? )

Yes, I do know the difference and most modern square riggers can only make a max of about 16 knots designed hull speed (I sail them in my spare time).

 

My fascination with sail sprang from a print of a painting that used to hang in the hallway of my grandfather's house just outside Southampton. (Grandad was RN through and through. He did his training under sail and was sunk at Jutland when he was but a cabin boy. In WW II he was sunk at least twice, once on Escort duty during the Battle of the Atlantic and once (I think.) in the Pacific theatre, he was commander both times and they still kept giving him ships!!!! )

Where did he do his training? My Great Grandad was a Gunnery Instructor prior to WWI and went somewhere a bit more 'active' when war broke out.

[Skeeve]

Later models also had the oil condensate return routed to the rocker covers rather than the head and then, on the spineframes the decision was made that the condensor volume of the frame was adequate to cope with a return to direct oil return to the sump. I personally think was unwise but we won't go there now.

OK, well all this being that let's go 'there' now . . .

 

Yeah, what Docc sed! All this chit-chat of wooden ships & iron men is of great fascination [to my brother!] but not exactly on-topic.

 

Illuminate me o' Roper of the Southern Cross, as to why the oil-returns should be restored to the heads!

[jrt]

Bleah, I hate the oil return from the valve covers (if that's what you meant Skeeve). It always seemed to be a great place for a leak to develop, and it makes it more of a pain to set the valves. I guess it was done for improved venting...but that doesn't mean I have to like it. Damn, I like that smilie.

[pete roper]

Uh, sorry, I didn't mean for it to drift so far. I'll answer dennis's question im a PM.

 

Oil return to the cylinder heads. OK, the reason why I actually preffer the idea is from my experiences with earlier bikes. You may or may not be aware of the serious problems the early cast iron bored 950 roundfins without a sump extension suffered from but these were notorious for flooding their air-boxes after short periods at even moderate revs. I first experience this within a week of buying my first big-block, an SP, on a motorway in Southern England. If I took it over 80mph within a minute it would fill the airbox up to the level of the intake trumpets, the oil would flood down the intake manifolds and the bike would lose power instantly while blurting out a collosal cloud of blue smoke like a destroyer putting down a smoke screen while on convoy duty! Very disconcerting! I thought "d blown the motor of course but I pulled up at the side of the raod and waited a couple of minutes, re-started, the smoke cleared and everything was fine.........Until I took it over 80mph again when it recurred almost instantly.

 

Now I've previously discussed the problem with the earlier bikes' breather boxes being overwhelmed by the expulsion of too much oil laden gas from the crankcase but on the earlier bikes there was a secondary problem. On these the condensate return to the sump is via a second, smaller, pipe next to the 'Big Breather' that pokes out of the top of the bell housing. This pipe disappears into the bell housing where it loops around the inside before returning the oil to the sump via a banjo fitting with a pipe bolt through it. The pipe of the pipe bolt returns the oil BELOW the level of the oil in the sump.

 

The problem with this sytem is that it is my belief that at higher RPM on the larger capacity/smaller crankcas volume models, especially those with the inferior sealing cast iron bores, at elevated revs the crankcase pressure rapidly becomes so high that oil from the sump is pushed back UP this pipe and floods the condensor box and thence dumps the oil into the carb manifolds. Some people scoff at the idea, the thing is though that the flooding of the box occurs so rapidly that I don't believe that it can occur purely as a result of exessive vapor expulsion.

 

By having the returns routed to the head the return pipe to the sump direct can be deleted so that there is no chance for oil to be expelled up it into the airbox.There *may* still be issued duing prolonged high speed running of gradual expulsion of oil into the frame and due to crankcase pressure it may not be able to drain back to the rockerboxes particularly effectively but I've never heard of a bike with this sytem expelling enough oil into the frame to either a.) overwhelm it and flood it or b.) leave so little in the sump that engine damage occurs.

 

On later models this no longer seems to be a problem, even though the return has been relocated back to the sump, but on principle I preffer the return to rockerbox idea. Incidentally the annoying pipes that Jason talks of on the front of the rockerboxes of later roundfins aren't oil returns. they are simply vent pipes to help combat condensation forming mayonaise in the rockerboxes. The oil return pipes on models like Mk IV/V LeMans, T5's and 1000S's are in the back of the head adjacent to the oil feed pipe for the rockers but towards the rear of the head. I put the fact that the problem no longer occurs down to two things. 1.) Nicasil bores which seal so much better and 2.) The greater crankcase volume which lowers the 'Pumping' action as the motor spins.

 

I hope that makes sense.

 

Pete