Fork oil seal replacement...please help!

[Guest Nigelstephens]

I have the fork unit on the workbench (WP sport 1100 injection 1997) with oil drained and damper removed. How do I sepereate the stanchioin from the fork leg to get the seal out?

 

There is a red plastic top to the stanchion inside. Does this need removing?

Or does one try and remove the lower end where the brakes go (I doubt is somehow)?

 

On other thing the old seals are fitted with the spring side of the seal exposed. This is oposite to what I was expecting. Is this okay?

 

Many thanks

[dlaing]

Heck I don't know, but 50 views and no replies yet...

I don't know or remember the answers.

I unclearly recall on the Marzocchi the outer tube simply slides off the stanchion

This is from the V11 manual for the Marzocchi.

It looks like the spring may be up, but I can't tell...And what does up or downwards mean in an upside down fork when the photo shows it inverted???

[guzzijack]

I have the fork unit on the workbench (WP sport 1100 injection 1997) with oil drained and damper removed. How do I sepereate the stanchioin from the fork leg to get the seal out?

 

There is a red plastic top to the stanchion inside. Does this need removing?

Or does one try and remove the lower end where the brakes go (I doubt is somehow)?

 

On other thing the old seals are fitted with the spring side of the seal exposed. This is oposite to what I was expecting. Is this okay?

 

Many thanks

 

Nigel,

 

The workshop manual for the Daytona/Cenaturo/1100Sporti shows that when taking the WP USD forks apart for seal renewal there is a retaining (stop) ring that has to be removed followed by a security red bush which has three marks. The accomapanying diagram shows quite a few seals and rings in there so you might want to carefully note the order in which they come out.

 

If you want a copy of the 'pdf manual (in English) drop me a PM with your details and I'll burn one to CD - it's a bit big to email - 512 pages & 8.22Mb but I could try.

 

Graham

[Alex-Corsa]

Had the seals replaced a couple of years ago, my friend who knew about forks didn't have any difficulty removing anything with the manual as a guide, even if that was his first time opening a WP guzzi fork. I will attempt to upload the manual section of this

There are 7 pages covering the fork removal, here is the parts you're mostly interested.

 

Due to limmited atchement space I cant post any more here, but I could email you the whole 1100i Sport Wrksp manual if you don't have it. Just drop me a PM if you are interested. Yes it's a bit big 8-9MB .pdf and be sure your eimail has space for it.

 

hint , after draining the whole oil take care of the oil replaement The manual states 400ml on each fork , on my last change that I didn't change the seals, just did regular service once a year for oil renewal, 400cc on each was too much and after 1km ride it blew the safety locks away and oil was drained all over. so I removed the fork again and regulated the oil to 250-270cc on each leg.

Now I don't remember how much oil I have added when the fork was completelly stripped out when I have changed the seals. It is though possible that I have one the 400cc as manual says(on each leg) and at the regular service some oil was left inside Sure thing is that the level of the oil was too high reaching almost the top of the fork (yes did the up-dowm movements for the oil to ''settle in'' ) I guess the oil level should be something like10-15cm down from top of the fork.

[Guest Nigelstephens]

Thanks for the guidance.

I managed to seperate the two in the end with a sharp tug. However the red security ring came off and this appears to retain the top bearing ring in place on the stanchion. So must get a new one.

 

I have learnt a leason this weekend. Don't get fork seals of ebay. The ones I have just got are poor quality and the result is it still leaks. Unless the scores marks are causing the leaks.

 

I will get some decent seals in the seek from Moto Mecca and try again next saturday. I will then know if it is the scoring or not.

[Guest ratchethack]

Nige, I haven't responded here because I have no experience with WP forks. But there are 3 items common to all cartridge forks that I believe you should be mindful of and careful about:

 

1. If I'm reading your original post correctly, your concerns about the previous seals being installed incorrectly are well-founded. It sounds to me like they were upside-down, in which case they would leak like blown seals. As Dave posted and illustrated above, for the Marz 40 mm USD fork, the Guzzi manual states, "IMPORTANT: the internal seal ring must be refitted with its bevel facing downwards". Unfortunately, "downwards" may be confusing, as the fork is held upside-down when replacing the seals! The manual's wording is a not-so-clear English translation for, "the spring side of the seal goes inside where you can't see it."

 

2. When re-filling any cartridge fork, it's difficult to know if you've managed to drain out all the old oil, a substantial amount of which can remain trapped inside -- despite all the pumping out you may be inclined to do -- both right-side-up and upside-down. If you don't get it all out and you use the volume method to refill, you will OVERFILL the forks -- overfill enough and you will blow the seals and/or seal retainers, as Alex noted above! For this reason, after doing your best to pump out all the old oil, may I STRONGLY recommend using the AIR GAP measurement method, rather than using the 400 ml (this is the VOLUME the manual calls for in the Marz 40 mm USD) measurement method. It's fairly critical to get this within +/- 1-2 mm. It's also a proof-positive method of ensuring correct and even air spring on both sides. Just a few mm makes a lot of difference in air spring effect. The only time I believe it's acceptable to use the volume method is when the forks are new and known to be devoid of any trapped oil -- as on the assembly floor.

 

The air gap is set by blocking up the forks all the way to their full "bottom-out" position with springs and spacers out. The forks are designed to release all air upward, not to release all their oil! FORK CARTRIDGE FLUID is then added to the correct level, while being careful to pump ALL the air out. For the Marz 40 mm USD fork, which I presume is similar to the WP (?), the recommended air gap is 100 mm from the top of the stanchions, and it can be adjusted up or down here in increments of only a few mm at a time to suit achievement of as much fork travel as you want for the kind of riding you do within the 120 mm max travel the fork is capable of. At 100 mm air gap with my Wilbers fork springs, my fork is set so that my max travel under extraordinary square-bump compression whilst howling the front tire with the brake is 110-115 mm fork travel. This suits me well for the kind of riding I do. Different spring rates and rider weights will cause this to vary, and a poor match between the twain would point to an extraordinary air gap setting far away from 100 mm in a futile attempt to correct for the fundamental problem.

 

3. May I also recommend, slightly less strenuously than #2 above, CARTRIDGE FORK FLUID rather than FORK OIL in your forks. The difference is greater than the difference between dino and synthetic, which it is -- but more than this, CARTRIDGE FORK FLUID uses an entirely different, much higher-caliber grade scale, has superior operating properties and will deliver longer service life. I use 125/150, which seems to have the viscosity equivalent of something between 5wt and 7.5wt fork oil.

 

Good luck!

[DeBenGuzzi]

I had the dealer do mine, I wasn't about to do the for seals myself, I could do the oil in'em but I've never worked on or seen a fork worked on. A buddy of mine said they are really hard so that scared me. Dealer did the forks and engine oil for $300, I don't know if that was totally worth it or not considering I have no idea what I'm doing I guess it was. Good thing is it really doesn't need to be done very often maybe new seals every third fork oil change or when they go bad I assume. Whats a good rule on fork oil change too every 20k?

[Guest ratchethack]

Whats a good rule on fork oil change too every 20k?

In the Guzzi maintenance schedule, the fork oil change schedule from new is 1K miles and 6K (it lists nothing after that). The SERVICE manual says every 12000 mi, or at least once a year.

 

Others hereabouts have suggested that it needs changing next to never, or that after initial change-out, it actually never needs changing at all. My impression is that the excuses for not expending the effort are many, varied, and sometimes spectacularly creative. For a long list of reasons, in most cases it simply doesn't get done at all. Let's face it -- for many riders, it's just expensive enough to have done by a Pro, and tedious enough to do yourself, where it's one of those items that's quite easily perpetually neglected until well overdue, and then when the gild is off the lilly, the bloom is off the rose, and it's time for a bigger, better, and faster moto, it gets left for the next owner to deal with. . . .

 

As Carl Allison has pointed out several times from personal experience, the consequences of not doing it can be dire, and quite costly.

[DeBenGuzzi]

In the Guzzi maintenance schedule, the fork oil change schedule from new is 1K miles and 6K (it lists nothing after that). The SERVICE manual says every 12000 mi, or at least once a year.

 

Others hereabouts have suggested that it needs changing next to never, or that it actually never needs changing at all. My impression is that most riders never give it a thought and it simply doesn't get done at all. .

 

As Carl Allison has pointed out several times from personal experience, the consequences of not doing it can be dire, and quite costly.

well I'll just figure about ever 20k or every other year if I ride it a lot. I thought it was every 18k but I might have seen it at 1-6-18 then every 12 sounds better if you say every 12.

20 should be fine I lay off the wheelies and the roads are very flat straight and smoothe here

[Guest Nigelstephens]

Thanks ratchethack for your info on over filling. I would think this would be very likely if it wasn't for the fact that I moved the stanchion up and down inside the fork leg with damper attached and oil (400cc) but without the top cap. That is no air compression. Still lots of oil coming out. With no air compression I'm thinking that the seal is the problem.

[Guest ratchethack]

Nige -- are you saying that lots of oil is coming out past the seals as you move the stanchion up & down without the fork caps on??

 

In this case, my friend, I'd say either those seals are blown, or they're in upside-down, per above.

 

BTW -- A dry stanchion on a dry seal can fail the new seal instantly. When installing new seals, before installing the stanchions, make sure to lube the inside lip of the seals amply with CARTRIDGE FORK FLUID! Also, make sure the stanchions are CLEAN before re-installing, and that they have a film of CARTRIDGE FORK FLUID wiped over their entire bearing surface.

[Alex-Corsa]

 

I will get some decent seals in the seek from Moto Mecca and try again next saturday. I will then know if it is the scoring or not.

 

Hi , I have emailed you the manual plus the seals pic , these are the only ones you should try. As they are the original part no. and do are exactly what this fork needs.

Notice the inside spring ring ,in both sides, that supports the seal.!

 

[Guest Nigelstephens]

Thanks. I will try to get some of those seals. Thanks for the manual!

 

Another point I noticed was the gap between the spacer and the wheel bearing on the left hand side(not the nut side) after I had tightened up the wheel spindle.

 

What is the procedure for tightening the wheel spindle. Previously I have no noticed this gap. I tightened the nut fully before tightening the lower clamps (two bolts per side). Is this correct. I did compress the forks a few times to get them to settle out their positions. The forks are not bent as far as I know.

[raz]

Another point I noticed was the gap between the spacer and the wheel bearing on the left hand side(not the nut side) after I had tightened up the wheel spindle.

 

What is the procedure for tightening the wheel spindle. Previously I have no noticed this gap. I tightened the nut fully before tightening the lower clamps (two bolts per side). Is this correct. I did compress the forks a few times to get them to settle out their positions. The forks are not bent as far as I know.

I know this was a couple of months ago, but did you sort this out? The spacer should be on the nut side (which is on your left when riding, I don't know what definition of left you used above) and there should be no gap. I recently realized I had mine assembled the wrong way, see http://morini.com.au/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2563

[Guest Nigelstephens]

Yes I sorted it out. I had the LH fork out again as I put cheap seals in the first time and they leaked. After getting proper Guzzi seals I did the job correctly second time. Also I ground out some scores in the tubes.

 

The result is no leaks. As for the gap it is still there but I have tightend the two bolts on the rh bottom leg so that when doing up the nut on the LH the gap is pulled closed. This was after pumping on the suspension to make sure things were settled out. The gap top close up was less than before so Im hoping that this is meant to be. Also hoping that this will not cause wear or scoring, but I do onder how the scoring got there in the first place. It was on one tube only so I would tend to suspect contamination and lodging in the soft tube bearing.