Oil filter loosening info.

[Dan M]

Quote

 

"Here's one for the books: Once, and only once, it happened that the gasket stuck to the block. I didn't notice that because of where it was located. Nor did I notice it missing on the used filter taken off,"

And this is exactly the cause of "seal extrusions" when referenced to spin on engine oil filters. If the filter is tightened within the broadest limits of the proper range the seal will not, cannot extrude under normal operating pressure ranges. In most situations when there are pressure extremes the filter can will burst before the seal extrudes and fails. The pressure must be extremely high usually from a defective relief valve or very cold, viscous oil.

 

This is a very common problem where the operator neglects actually checking the sealing surfaces. It's the same as "I didn't see the biker"." Didn't see" = didn't look. Working carefully is the key.

 

When using gauges I personally use electrical gauges on motorcycles. Try to avoid the commonly used 1/8 inch nylon line.

 

 

Again, we share the same experience and agree on this stuff. I remember back in the 70's I saw more than one Chrysler product with enough sludge and varnish to have the oil pump relief valve stuck closed. Those filters puffed up and blew out at the seam but the base and gasket were intact. I've never seen a gasket on a spin on fail (unless of course there were two)

[Skeeve]

Here's one for the books: Once, and only once, it happened that the gasket stuck to the block. I didn't notice that because of where it was located. Nor did I notice it missing on the used filter taken off, probably because it never happened to me before in decades of changing filters, and because it was covered with dirty oil. Started the car, and made sure the pressure built up OK, as always. Next morning, we took off up the road. I have a habit of checking the pressure guage frequently, especially after an oil change. After driving about 1200 feet, pressure dropped off. Stopped the car immediately. I found that the double gaskets had held pressure for a while, about 800 feet, then extruded out, and emptied most of the sump in a matter of seconds. Interestingly the guage told the story while the idiot light stayed off until I shut down the engine.

 

Since then, I check every filter I take off to make sure the gasket comes with it!

 

Funny you should bring this up; it just happened to me about 2 weeks ago on the oil change for my 'zook! Luckily, the filter is external, so when starting up and seeing a sudden spurt of oil jetting past my left boot, I was able to shut down the motor soon enough? to prevent serious damage [i hope! Still doesn't sound as good as it did, but that may be 90% all mental...], and of course, I'll be checking on this for *any* oil change henceforth!

 

FWIW, this is a disadvantage stemming from use of the stock filter; the Purolator filter I replaced it with uses an O-ring instead of a gasket like the stock filter. O-rings don't stick to the block better than the can, the way rubber gaskets do...

[Ryland3210]

This might be useful for ideas-Greg Bender put on on his Ambassador.

 

Thanks much for this goldmine!

 

John

 

Quote

 

When using gauges I personally use electrical gauges on motorcycles. Try to avoid the commonly used 1/8 inch nylon line.

 

I've thought of using small diameter brake lines with compression fittings. Had good luck with 3/16 diameter on air bags. No leaks, but rust is a factor. They're off the shelf, but what do you think of copper tubing with compression fittings? I too do not want to rely on nylon.

[Ryland3210]

Funny you should bring this up; it just happened to me about 2 weeks ago on the oil change for my 'zook! Luckily, the filter is external, so when starting up and seeing a sudden spurt of oil jetting past my left book, I was able to shut down the motor soon enough to prevent serious? damage [i hope!], and of course, I'll be checking on this for *any* oil change henceforth!

 

FWIW, this is a disadvantage stemming from use of the stock filter; the Purolator filter I replaced it with uses an O-ring instead of a gasket like the stock filter. O-rings don't stick to the block better than the can the way rubber gaskets do...

 

I wasn't so lucky. There was no leakage at first, probably because I tighten filters to the high end of the recommended range of turns, so I drove off. I spotted the oil pressure dropping about 50 feet out of my driveway. The driveway is 900 feet long. On the way back to my garage, I looked for the oil track. It had started about 400 feet out of the garage. If I hadn't had the habit of keeping my eagle eye on the guage for a while after I change oil, major damage might have been done. Now I have another good habit.

 

By the way, it was a Purolator filter that had let go of the gasket on its way off the engine. I still like that brand, and blame myself for not being diligent.

 

I realized I was setting myself up for justified chastisement for negligence by posting this episode, but I'm glad to have my ego bruised if it will save another rider a blown engine.

[Guest Gary Cheek]

I don't think anyone was chastising you. It was a solemn reminder to be ever vigilant. At least you didn't swear up and down that it was the "It unscrewed itself" syndrome.

[Ryland3210]

I don't think anyone was chastising you. It was a solemn reminder to be ever vigilant. At least you didn't swear up and down that it was the "It unscrewed itself" syndrome.

 

Thanks for the kind words, Gary.

 

In my last post I asked for your thoughts on copper tubing as a pressure guage line-any comment?

[Ryland3210]

Nice work, John. With all the recent oil filter/pressure failure phenomena, I reckon you very well could be right on track here. If this one proves valid on the durometer scale and then proves itself in field trials, you'll most certainly have more than earned your place in the Guzzi Hall of Famous Solutions to Very Serious, but Admittedly Esoteric Problems -- right next to Skeeve for his Famous Seat Latch/Idle Advance Spring Swap!

 

Thanks, Ratchethack.

 

I now have the special order Purolator version of the UFI filter. Next step is to exchange the filters. I'll see if I can come up with a way to find out what grade of elastomer UFI and Purolator use in the process. Measuring relative durometer would be straightforward, except I'm concerned the UFI gasket may have taken a compression set by the time I check it. Therefore I hope to persuade my local dealer to let me measure a virgin gasket. If not, I suppose I can afford to buy the filter for the sake of science.

 

As to field trials, my plan is to install a pressure guage beforehand where I can watch it like a hawk for a while, while riding.

[Guest Gary Cheek]

Thanks for the kind words, Gary.

 

In my last post I asked for your thoughts on copper tubing as a pressure guage line-any comment?

 

 

Copper should be fine as is steel or stainless steel. Take a look at some of the better industrial type compression fittings like Swage-Lock (SIC?) etc. They usualy have a 2 piece compression component under the nut. VDO(the gauge people) makes adapters to go from the metric thread in the Guzzi engine to a 1/8"NPT thread as you may wind up using.

[Ryland3210]

Copper should be fine as is steel or stainless steel. Take a look at some of the better industrial type compression fittings like Swage-Lock (SIC?) etc. They usualy have a 2 piece compression component under the nut. VDO(the gauge people) makes adapters to go from the metric thread in the Guzzi engine to a 1/8"NPT thread as you may wind up using.

 

Thanks, Gary.

 

Yup, I've had good luck with Swage-Lock, and also with Parker's. Is the port on the block the type with the O-Ring chamfer, as is used on SAE hydraulic ports, or is it set up for the Dowty type face sealing washers? If it's any trouble to provide these details, no problem, I'll find out when I take the fitting out.

[Guest Gary Cheek]

Crush washer. Although you could easily cut a releif in the backside of the fitting and implement an "O" ring very easily.

[Guest Mattress]

Well, you can't see the filter from inside a car either. Nothing wrong with belts and suspenders on something so critical.

 

Since then, I check every filter I take off to make sure the gasket comes with it!

You can see it if you are a geek enough to make sure the Jiffy Lube put on a new filter. Just check your car manual. What I meant was a leaking Guzzi V11 sport filter leaks into the pan...... my 94 chevy cavalier leaks from the filter onto my garage floor.

[Guest Gary Cheek]

You can see it if you are a geek enough to make sure the Jiffy Lube put on a new filter. Just check your car manual. What I meant was a leaking Guzzi V11 sport filter leaks into the pan...... my 94 chevy cavalier leaks from the filter onto my garage floor.

 

There must be something wrong with the sealing surface. Someone may have gouged it ? Very, very rare.

I would surely fix that.

[callison]

Fascinating thread, made all the more so since I've never heard of durometers, Shore scales and so forth. When my case of oil finally arrives (Agip 10w60 4T Racing), I'm going to be changing the oil in my Norge. I'll have to have to look to see if there's enough space in the external filter recess on the pan for a hose clamp around the filter. Given that there may be nothing for the hose clamp to lodge against, it may be a case of using the hose clamp (if it fits) to secure a piece of safety wire and drill a small hole in a sump fin to run the safety wire through. At least with the external filter, if it lets go, you'll know real quick because it's going to be going to directly onto the rear tire - with possibly fatal results. After reading this thread, it behooves me to aim for the highest level of installation standards or security that I can manage.

[Guest Gary Cheek]

I ran external filters on nearly all of my Britbikes in the 70s. I was very fussy about the type and condition of the hoses and fittings. Most of the lines were steel tube with Parker Hannifin beaded ends and Aeroquipt hoses with swedged steel ferrules. The systems were regularly inspected. I used the spin on filter adapters commonly used for VW beetles in the return line.Usually mounted near the swing arm pivot. The only oil leak I ever had was a rocker feed line that fatiqued and broke on a high mileage Royal Enfield Interceptor. The filter staying tight was never an issue. I did trash can the outside the pan filter on my Cal III in favor of the factory in the pan filter. The filter on the Cal II was in a pocket in the bottom much like the new filters. My main concern was a rock or other road shrapnel tearing the filter can. I would have to admit there is no reason NOT to secure the filter in an external application.

 

Maybe there would be demand for an aftermarket adapter to put the filter INSIDE the pan. Perhaps with a trap door for access. Of course we would probably have to provide for a hose clamp and/or safety wire to secure the trap door! We could call it the "Insider". I'll bet we could get some former Guzzi dealer to sell them!

 

Really though in an external application there is no real downside to securing the filter, for those so inclined.

[guzzigray]

Interesting thread and very timely. I took apart a Sport1100 engine today (for my race bike) and lo and behold: loose Uni Filter. It wasn't even a tight fit and could be loosened with very little pressure. I will go with the hose clamp snugged up to something as per my Tonti Lemans motor. This was recommended to me about 15 yrs ago by BJ Schwartz and i've never had a problem