V1100 Bevel box failure

[pasotibbs]

Ha thats interesting you say Reboot had one in stock..was it a crackle finish one? They broke my first Rosso about four years ago (it caught alight). When I asked about it they wanted much too much for it in my opinion. My first Rosso did only 300miles so box shoulda been good if it was my old one. Surely cant have been after this time? Thanks for giving Jack the business,always feel it good to support people who try that bit harder. Anyone who wants bearings outa the ordinary could do far worse.( I'll see him for my pint later)! lol I used my mates press for crownwheel brgs,although it didnt take a lot of pressure to shift.There will be NIL play when its back together. mail me if you want a chat about job and I wil telephone you or vica/versa.

 

I can't really remember what it looked like as it was in a box in the back of his van , (he was loading up to take to the Trofeo) I just reached in and gave it a wobble to see how it compared

It could be that the big split race bearing is loose from new and this allows the Pinion to move slightly which then causes the pinion nose bearing to overload at the tips of the rollers and break up ?

Looking at mine the centre of the bearing is only slightly damaged (by the bits falling of the ends ?) but the ends are toast, it could be if you caught it early and adjusted the split race bearing as Pete did in his original post it may be ok

I've still got to find a 36mm socket for the pinion nut (I may have to cut it off as you did and deal with that later) I'll let you know if (when! ) I get stuck .

[Guest ratchethack]

Hi all. Has anyone else had a bevel box failure on V1100? Mine developed play in the pinion bearing which I only found when giving the bike a check over.I was feeling for any play in the drive u/j's when I detected lift in the bevel box inut shaft. I drained the oil from it to find a silvery sheen to it..OH NO!!! BAD NEWS !!

The box was removed from the bike and I removed the cover plate (tight fit this). I could see no major failure at this time but decided to strip the whole lot out.

Andy, (and Pasotibs also!) my hat's off to you for your "heads-up" diagnosis and rebuild. The Forum is indebted to you for sharing your entire experience.

 

Not that this means we all necessarily have to start worrying about ANOTHER "symptom" of V-11 "maturity" -- I take your experience as a rather rare anomaly -- but you bet y'er end-float I was out there wobbling my pinion shaft as soon's I read y'er post.

 

I'm with Richard on the liklihood of the Luigi's not getting bearings home against their registers on the assembly floor. Might be one o' those Monday or Friday Grappa-related things. . .

 

Since you've "had the course" here, wot's y'er best recommendation on how to check for an acceptable amount of play in the pinion shaft? 'Nother words, is there a measurable range?

 

Your thoughts about the wisdom of a periodic check and/or adjustment procedure as a matter of course?

 

Enquiring minds anticipate wobbling pinion shafts with a means of identifying a problem in early stages.

[rossoandy]

Andy, (and Pasotibs also!) my hat's off to you for your "heads-up" diagnosis and rebuild. The Forum is indebted to you for sharing your entire experience.

 

Not that this means we all necessarily have to start worrying about ANOTHER "symptom" of V-11 "maturity" -- I take your experience as a rather rare anomaly -- but you bet y'er end-float I was out there wobbling my pinion shaft as soon's I read y'er post.

 

I'm with Richard on the liklihood of the Luigi's not getting bearings home against their registers on the assembly floor. Might be one o' those Monday or Friday Grappa-related things. . .

 

Since you've "had the course" here, wot's y'er best recommendation on how to check for an acceptable amount of play in the pinion shaft? 'Nother words, is there a measurable range?

 

Your thoughts about the wisdom of a periodic check and/or adjustment procedure as a matter of course?

 

Enquiring minds anticipate wobbling pinion shafts with a means of identifying a problem in early stages.

Well I don't wanna pretend I am an expert on V11 bevels but my feeling is there should be NO or miniscule play/lift in the pinion. The way its designed \brgs used would not like any more than the faintest whiff of play. What I will say is if you find a small amount of play,GET IT SORTED because at that stage little damage will have been done to other bearings by the swarf from the failing bearing and to replace just the little bearing (although its a pig to get out of case) is a relatively minor job. I check the drive u/joints as often as thinkk too, I guess every 3000m should be ok to catch things early but it only takes seconds to 'have a feel' Tightening the big nut will have no effect if its the little bearing but may if its the big main brg failing,this big brg is built to last and I think the problem will usually be that the little un has failed first perhaps causing wear to the main one.The serrated outer nut is the one that holds the big brg in place but again tightening this will have little or no effect. I of course do not have access to how the factory build the things from new but I be surprised if my view wrong. However if you can find out differently I humbly accept.(anyone read this in technical at factory)?

[raz]

Might be one o' those Monday or Friday Grappa-related things. . .

 

Actually it could be a Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday Grappa-related thing as well

[Guest ratchethack]

Thanks f'er the feedback, Andy. This sent me out f'er another wobble session.

 

There seems to be perhaps as much as a max of .5 mm or so lateral movement possible at the driveshaft, through the U-joint when grasping the shaft and giving it a good shake-down.

 

I'm not concerned about it, however, because on closer inspection, the U-joint (with pinch-bolt still carrying its original Mandello paint seal) slides fore & aft on its splines on the pinion shaft about 1 mm, which is evidently the source of most of the lateral play. The U-joint, having received its regular ration of lube, seems to be solid enough. I can't detect any play whatsoever at the pinion shaft itself by eye.

 

At first sign, however, I'll be on it f'er a tune-up adjustment.

 

In the meantime, it's a steady diet o' Redline Shockproof Heavy, and Bob's Y'er Uncle.

 

Thanks again for the benefit of your experience!

[pete roper]

In my experience, which is limited to the box I took apart for the photo-essay and several others I've tightened up the castelated pinion nut on, tightening the nut does seem to reduce the side play in the pinion. Not always, but in many cases it does. I think this IS down to the bearing not being pushed fully onto it's register OR alternatively it just settling in service.

 

It's the latteral play in the pinion that this allows that seems the most likely culprit for the hailed pinion *nose* bearing. As Andy said the wear pattern on the inner race looks as if the pinion has been pushed off it's axis which should be next to impossible unless their is excessive end float on the pinion.

 

Probably the strangest thing is that even with quite pronounced play in the pinion the pinion teeth don't seem to suffer any damage, although it must throw out the mesh more than I would of thought was acceptable

 

Pete

[Guest ratchethack]

Thanks Pete, f'er de-mystifying the bevel box.

 

Without y'er intrepid analysis and Colin the Chook's brilliant directions, I'd be afeared o' the shimmerin' shim phantoms and blind bearing boogeymen.

 

Now I won't hesitate to dive in when and if the need arises.

[pasotibbs]

The bearings have arrived, for those that are interested, they are..

f-213832 £29.10 +vat (this is the big pinion bearing)

nk40/20 £23.42 +vat(this is a big needle bearing)although I've been sent a nk45/20 (it says 40/20 on the order) anyone know what this means ? it looks the same dimensions, although the old bearing isn't out yet !

"I 12/16" (Pinion nose bearing) not a 12/16 (the I means it has an internal race and this makes the whole bearing bigger)

hk25162rs £8.50 +vat

16016 £52.42 +vat (big crownwheel bearing)

 

still can't get that pinion nut off though

even with the back brake on hard it still turns the wheel rather than let go

As Andy says an airgun won't shift it either, this looks like being a long job

[El_Gringo]

The bearings have arrived, for those that are interested, they are..

f-213832 £29.10 +vat (this is the big pinion bearing)

nk40/20 £23.42 +vat(this is a big needle bearing)although I've been sent a nk45/20 (it says 40/20 on the order) anyone know what this means ? it looks the same dimensions, although the old bearing isn't out yet !

nk12/16 £11.72 +vat (pinion nose bearing) but this doesn't have the inner race so I may need to buy that elsewhere ? (hopefully Rossoandy remembers what he did ).

hk25162rs £8.50 +vat

16016 £52.42 +vat (big crownwheel bearing)

 

still can't get that pinion nut off though

even with the back brake on hard it still turns the wheel rather than let go

As Andy says an airgun won't shift it either, this looks like being a long job

 

Hello All,

I bought my V11 in Oct 06. Had the MOT done and rear tyre replaced and the rear wheel bearing was found to be shagged. It was duly replaced by the previous owner, all done and handed over to me in exchange for my hard earned. After 450 miles a strange noise was eminating from the rear, yes you guessed it, the bearing was shagged agained! On closer inspection the bevel box was making an odd noise as well. So, being the intrepied - pull it apart sort of bloke I am - I pulled it all apart. Agast! - no F***ing oil at all in the bevel box! not even a hint. I don't mind admitting I cried And then promptly went out for a beer!

So, I am in the market for a complete overhaul, bearings, seals the whole nine yards.

So pasotibbs, do you have the details of your bearing man. As for the lock nut, I can't get it off either! I bought a 24" breaker bar and ratchet strapped the whole lot up, only to break the strap! Working on the assuption one ought to change the lock nut anyway, I will split it off and buy a new one. What is this redline oil stuff I've read about? CAn we get it here in blighty?

 

Any other help would be greatly apprciated!

 

Cheers one and all!

[grossohc]

Demon tweeks sell redline oil, best of luck with the job .

Gary

[pasotibbs]

Hello All,

I bought my V11 in Oct 06. Had the MOT done and rear tyre replaced and the rear wheel bearing was found to be shagged. It was duly replaced by the previous owner, all done and handed over to me in exchange for my hard earned. After 450 miles a strange noise was eminating from the rear, yes you guessed it, the bearing was shagged agained! On closer inspection the bevel box was making an odd noise as well. So, being the intrepied - pull it apart sort of bloke I am - I pulled it all apart. Agast! - no F***ing oil at all in the bevel box! not even a hint. I don't mind admitting I cried And then promptly went out for a beer!

So, I am in the market for a complete overhaul, bearings, seals the whole nine yards.

So pasotibbs, do you have the details of your bearing man. As for the lock nut, I can't get it off either! I bought a 24" breaker bar and ratchet strapped the whole lot up, only to break the strap! Working on the assuption one ought to change the lock nut anyway, I will split it off and buy a new one. What is this redline oil stuff I've read about? CAn we get it here in blighty?

 

Any other help would be greatly apprciated!

 

Cheers one and all!

 

Jack at BRT bearings, Ashford, Kent 01233 611797

[pasotibbs]

Hello All,

I bought my V11 in Oct 06. Had the MOT done and rear tyre replaced and the rear wheel bearing was found to be shagged. It was duly replaced by the previous owner, all done and handed over to me in exchange for my hard earned. After 450 miles a strange noise was eminating from the rear, yes you guessed it, the bearing was shagged agained! On closer inspection the bevel box was making an odd noise as well. So, being the intrepied - pull it apart sort of bloke I am - I pulled it all apart. Agast! - no F***ing oil at all in the bevel box! not even a hint. I don't mind admitting I cried And then promptly went out for a beer!

So, I am in the market for a complete overhaul, bearings, seals the whole nine yards.

So pasotibbs, do you have the details of your bearing man. As for the lock nut, I can't get it off either! I bought a 24" breaker bar and ratchet strapped the whole lot up, only to break the strap! Working on the assuption one ought to change the lock nut anyway, I will split it off and buy a new one. What is this redline oil stuff I've read about? CAn we get it here in blighty?

 

Any other help would be greatly apprciated!

 

Cheers one and all!

 

Seals for bevel box are...

 

BRTS70X85X8 OIL SEAL £1.64 +VAT

BRTS32X52X7 OIL SEAL £1.03 +VAT

BRTS37X55X8 OIL SEAL £1.64 +VAT

BS163 O RING £0.50 +VAT

 

I've still got to source the inner race for the pinion nose bearing and cut off the pinion nut

 

I ordered the pinion nut last week (1 week delivery) it costs approx £7.

 

hope this helps (RossoAndy knows more as he did this first, so could be worth a PM)

good luck

[El_Gringo]

Seals for bevel box are...

 

BRTS70X85X8 OIL SEAL £1.64 +VAT

BRTS32X52X7 OIL SEAL £1.03 +VAT

BRTS37X55X8 OIL SEAL £1.64 +VAT

BS163 O RING £0.50 +VAT

 

I've still got to source the inner race for the pinion nose bearing and cut off the pinion nut

 

I ordered the pinion nut last week (1 week delivery) it costs approx £7.

 

hope this helps (RossoAndy knows more as he did this first, so could be worth a PM)

good luck

Thanks for the info. I have ordered the bearings and seals from Jack. A bloody nice chap, very helpful, he also sourced a seal for my old Beeza! Did you say you still need the needle roller the drive shaft pushes into? The list of bearings Jack supplied seems to be complete.

 

How did you and Rossoandy get the drive shaft out? The bevel gear is trapped by the bearing housing. I was thinking about waiting for my wife to go out then put the whole box in the oven. There is an M8 thread in the end, so I plan to get a length of M8 stud put a nut on the end and a slide weight and pop it out. This all very well but how do you get it back in again? Did you make a special tool?

 

Any ather pearls of wisdom, greatfully accepted!

 

Cheers

Colin

[pasotibbs]

Thanks for the info. I have ordered the bearings and seals from Jack. A bloody nice chap, very helpful, he also sourced a seal for my old Beeza! Did you say you still need the needle roller the drive shaft pushes into? The list of bearings Jack supplied seems to be complete.

 

How did you and Rossoandy get the drive shaft out? The bevel gear is trapped by the bearing housing. I was thinking about waiting for my wife to go out then put the whole box in the oven. There is an M8 thread in the end, so I plan to get a length of M8 stud put a nut on the end and a slide weight and pop it out. This all very well but how do you get it back in again? Did you make a special tool?

 

Any ather pearls of wisdom, greatfully accepted!

 

Cheers

Colin

I got the pinion out using large washers/spacers and a bolt in the M8 thread to draw it out but Andy used a sliding hammer.I finally got the pinion nut off today by cutting off the seal and taking the bearing apart so only the inner race remained, using the inner race in the vice jaws I cut a slot almost through the nut and by heating it up was able to unsrew it.

I bought a blind bearing removal tool (a sliding hammer that can grip the inside of a bearing) and pulled the pinion nose bearing with no problem at all (it will help with wheel bearings as well )

I've still got to tackle the other bearings and seals so I'll keep posting as I go.

Reassembly is something I have still to tackle so I can't help much there at the moment .

The part I'm missing is the inner race of the pinion nose bearing Andy's order included 2 bearings that I haven't seen in the box 2* 609zz, the list I gave is all the bearings I have seen so far so unless they live somewhere underneath the crownwheel (that I have yet to remove) I don't think you need to order them (I think Rossoandy has been busy so I've been unable to confirm this).(RossoAndy later confirmed these were actually on his order but were for something else-and he forgot to tell me)

I've taken Friday off to try and source the inner race and continue the strip down so I'll let you know what I find.

 

If you haven't already get the nut ordered as I was told it would be a week to deliver (mine should arrive thur/fri hopefully)

 

 

Good luck

[mike wilson]

Demon tweeks sell redline oil, best of luck with the job .

Gary

 

 

Make sure you are sitting down when you order it......

 

You'll also be making sure that there is not the slightest weep from any seal, joint or breather.