Budget Tuning

[Guest Eric123]

I want to do some work on my Le Mans this spring, tune-up etc, but also want to do some tuning for performance. However, I am trying not to kill my bank account--so a few questions.

 

I know most people do the filter, power commander, cross-over, and exhaust for basic bolt-on's, but am wondering if I could say, do the filter (air box) and cross-over? Or just do the cross over, or just exhaust?

 

I am also looking to replace the 4 year old Bridgestone Battalaxes with a pair of Dunlop D220's (OEM size)--any one have any success with that model?

[pete roper]

Spend money on suspension, not motor.

 

I ought to just put this up as a copy and paste so it can go in on every nquiry of this sort

 

Pete

[dlaing]

I want to do some work on my Le Mans this spring, tune-up etc, but also want to do some tuning for performance. However, I am trying not to kill my bank account--so a few questions.

 

I know most people do the filter, power commander, cross-over, and exhaust for basic bolt-on's, but am wondering if I could say, do the filter (air box) and cross-over? Or just do the cross over, or just exhaust?

 

I am also looking to replace the 4 year old Bridgestone Battalaxes with a pair of Dunlop D220's (OEM size)--any one have any success with that model?

 

Stock airfilter is the best.

Cutting holes in the lid will give you power for no money down, but you will pay in earlier filter replacements

A cross-over is less ban for the buck.

More open mufflers can be good bang for the buck if you buy them second hand and are not worried about scratches.

A power commander will make the bike run better for not too much money. I recommend it as the first investment towards the engine.

 

Suspension is the most overlooked investment made.

But bang for buck starts to diminish pretty quickly.

Start with sag.

If that is OK with simple pre-load adjustment you are 80% happy without spending a dime!!!

If you need springs, add $250US plus labor.(but you have to change the fork fluid anyway...)

If you want more improvement, get a better shock $750-$1300.

If you want more improvement, spend $500-1000 getting forks revalved.

If you want more improvement spend $2500 on Ohlins R&T forks.

If you still aren't content, spend even more on Ohlins Superbike forks.

Then go on a diet, lose some weight and spend more money respringing and sorting out.

 

 

But don't forget, brakes and tires are important too.

 

I think I tried the Dunlop D208, but not the D220. Pretty good life and traction.

But I like Metzeler and Pirelli sport touring tires more.

Purely subjective.

 

I am still shopping for brake rotors...

[g.forrest]

I want to do some work on my Le Mans this spring, tune-up etc, but also want to do some tuning for performance. However, I am trying not to kill my bank account--so a few questions.

 

I know most people do the filter, power commander, cross-over, and exhaust for basic bolt-on's, but am wondering if I could say, do the filter (air box) and cross-over? Or just do the cross over, or just exhaust?

 

I am also looking to replace the 4 year old Bridgestone Battalaxes with a pair of Dunlop D220's (OEM size)--any one have any success with that model?

 

four year old tyres [ have you been in jail ?] put decent tyres on first, you definately won't notice 2/3 extra horses.

[Alex-Corsa]

four year old tyres [ have you been in jail ?] put decent tyres on first, you definately won't notice 2/3 extra horses.

 

Get some descent tires such as the Metzelers Z6 or the Pirelli stradas for your bike.

[Guest ratchethack]

Spend money on suspension, not motor.

 

I ought to just put this up as a copy and paste so it can go in on every nquiry of this sort

 

Pete

Pete, I've been bangin' this drum f'er years. This has got to be one of the greatest moto-mysteries of all time.

 

Now for cruisers, boulevard paraders, and riders of Motor Davidson Harley Cycles (and selected other marques ), neglect of suspension would seem to more closely fit the bill -- this is at least somewhat understandable.

 

But f'er any moto with "sporting" capabilities of any kind (such as the legendary Guzzi! ), and for riders of which to any degree aspire to ride them anywhere in the vicinity of the way they were designed to be ridden, I reckon its importance properly belongs right up there with tires, possibly even higher.

 

Done properly, which ain't expensive (relatively speaking), good suspension setup can, has, and continues to make the difference between a superbly handling machine and an unpredictable, wallowing sow.

 

Wot's y'er take on why it gets such little attention -- in many cases, it would appear to be ZERO?!

 

Enquiring minds just gotta know.

[pete roper]

Wot's y'er take on why it gets such little attention -- in many cases, it would appear to be ZERO?!

 

 

Buggered if I know? I suppose it's because a lot of folks believe all the bollocks they're fed about suspension tuning being a 'Black Art' . All it is is pushing oil through holes and bending bits of metal but it's all seen as some sort of 'White Man's Ju-Ju' There is also the fact that everybody *knows* that to go FAST you've got to have a powerful, highly tuned, (Prefferably to the point of unreliability!) motor that is noisy and cantankerous and it's worth spending HUGE amounts of money to get that! I suppose that's why Moto Morini were able to humble MV year after year in the 1950's with their crappy single cylinder shitbox when MV were racing with a high revving DOHC four

 

Pete

[Guest Eric123]

four year old tyres [ have you been in jail ?] put decent tyres on first, you definately won't notice 2/3 extra horses.

 

No, not yet, but I bought the bike from the original owner, and it only had 5900 miles when I bought it! I was only able to put about 1500 miles on it since I bought it late summer. It sat around for around a while--in fact mice had made a nice little nest in the leather tool kit for one winter--the wires are okay though. . .

[Guest Eric123]

Pete, I've been bangin' this drum f'er years. This has got to be one of the greatest moto-mysteries of all time.

 

Now for cruisers, boulevard paraders, and riders of Motor Davidson Harley Cycles (and selected other marques ), neglect of suspension would seem to more closely fit the bill -- this is at least somewhat understandable.

 

But f'er any moto with "sporting" capabilities of any kind (such as the legendary Guzzi! ), and for riders of which to any degree aspire to ride them anywhere in the vicinity of the way they were designed to be ridden, I reckon its importance properly belongs right up there with tires, possibly even higher.

 

Done properly, which ain't expensive (relatively speaking), good suspension setup can, has, and continues to make the difference between a superbly handling machine and an unpredictable, wallowing sow.

 

Wot's y'er take on why it gets such little attention -- in many cases, it would appear to be ZERO?!

 

Enquiring minds just gotta know.

 

I remember that back in my VW/BMW tuning days the key was suspension first and then motor--but then on the VW 8V the cam swap was easy and cheap. I did tweak the suspension a bit--and found no need to really do anything with the suspension--the OHLINS seem to do fine--maybe replace fork oil since it sat outside for a bit under a deck.

 

The American train of thought has been high horsepower and go straight mentality. Hence the Muscle Car movement in the 60's. But it may go deeper into the psyche. I don't think many guys stand around looking at a suspension set-up and say "man, your valving and choice of fork oil really make this a terror on the strip". Motors are the main focus points and times, the only salvation point for a low-buck shitbox. However, not quite following that caveman mentality, I choose to make decisions that keep my wallet full and head attached to my body.

[Guest ratchethack]

. . . it may go deeper into the psyche. I don't think many guys stand around looking at a suspension set-up and say "man, your valving and choice of fork oil really make this a terror on the strip". Motors are the main focus points and times, . . .

Yep, though it's easily enough mastered by anybody who can follow a good "cookbook" procedure, no doubt there must be a bargeload of bad psycho-baggage that paralyses riders into submission when it comes to chassis setup.

 

I reckon if a rider doesn't, can't, or won't make the effort to understand it, it's easier to shove it into a back closet and remain ignorant of what great handling the bike is capable of. . .

 

All other things being equal, I'll more'n happily take the Guzzi with correct sags and spring rates matched to my weight over one with thou$and$ inve$ted in 10 more peak HP on the dyno charts, but badly sorted suspension every time.

 

No doubt racer types (of which I decidedly ain't) would make the same choice and make better time on any kind of curving road course with the former too.

 

BAA, TJM & YMMV

[Dan M]

Yep, though it's easily enough mastered by anybody who can follow a good "cookbook" procedure, no doubt there must be a bargeload of bad psycho-baggage that paralyses riders into submission when it comes to chassis setup. <_ src="%7B___base_url___%7D/uploads/emoticons/default_knownothing.gif" alt=":huh2:">

 

I reckon if a rider doesn't, can't, or won't make the effort to understand it, it's easier to shove it into a back closet and remain ignorant of what great handling the bike is capable of. . .

 

All other things being equal, I'll more'n happily take the Guzzi with correct sags and spring rates matched to my weight over one with thou$and$ inve$ted in 10 more peak HP on the dyno charts, but badly sorted suspension every time.

 

BAA, TJM & YMMV

I can't get over those who have high grade, completely adjustable suspension on their bikes and have never touched it. I've offered to help more than one dial things in proper and get the in response. It is not a very steep learning curve but some guys either fail to see the benefit or just don't care.

Even better are the ones who's controls are not set up, brake & clutch levers at unnatural angles, miles of slop in the throttle cable, the gearshift so high that you have to lift your foot off of the peg. Makes me scratch my head.

[Guest Mattress]

I just must say Ratcheck I think is a good guide to setting up a suspension. He upgraded his shock and had good results.

 

Because of lay-offs coming, I want to enjoy the most by learning how to embrace the least, my V11 cafe sport, and what suspension fun she might teach me in her purity, and might she pass on to me what states she wants to visit this coming rally season.

 

I'm keeping mods to a minimum with crash bars ( Too long await for broken shit) and Teckno bags from e-bay, I also want to buy a centerstand, I am hoping to learn how to ride better and enjoy some rallies and all mate.

[Guest ratchethack]

Well thanks f'er the comment, Mattress. Looks like you might be preparing to give this some due consideration -- always a pleasure to see, and wot better time than winter in Chicago?

 

Yep, I've upgraded the shock, with excellent returns on effort and expense, IMHO. I did chassis setup, which involved upgrades, in sequence, starting at the front with upgraded fork springs, fork cartridge fluid, air gap, fork tube height, eventually custom shock with additional ride height at rear, etc. and have set & re-re-re-set everything 100% "stem to stern" until I arrived at a point where I'm actually very satisfied, and I'll more'n likely leave most of it alone from now on -- though there are a few things I'll probably never stop experimenting with. These are the "quick 'n easy" items made so convenient with "modern" adjustable suspension like high & low-speed compression damping of the shock, comp & rebound damping of the fork, and such as that. . . .

 

One of the things that motivated me to do this in the first place, (beyond the woefully inadequate stock fork springs) is the SUPERB level of development of tires f'er the road these days. As I've often whinged on ad nauseum , I reckon we're in a Golden Age of moto tire development. Is there any better way to take full advantage of this than by optimizing suspension?? If there is, it's got by me somehow. . . .

 

I can say without reservation that the way my bike handles now is in a different league altogether from wot came from Mandello, prior to chassis setup!

 

I reckon this is NOT at all unusual, nor is it any ACCIDENT!!

 

I think you've hit on something very important in your comment above. The way I think about the Guzzi, despite its considerable limitations chassis-wise, there is indeed a certain "purity" -- to use your word -- in the chassis that both rewards appreciation, and at the same time punishes neglect and ignorance. Wot I think of here WRT your word "purity" is the expertise (such as it is/was) represented by the engineering behind the chassis and its geometries (some would say lack thereof - and f'er those who know the story, there's the "accidental" part we've got to work with! ), that provides the fundamentals of handling behind the suspension components. Of course we all know the entire bike is loaded with considerable compromises -- especially when compared to "modern" road gear. But wot Guzzi managed to pass on to us in the spine frame ain't all that bad in my book, at least for road-going purposes -- that is, for a grossly overweight shaft-driver with a substantial aft weight bias. . . .

 

I guess wot I'm saying is that I've found there IS quite a bit to be gained from making the best of wot we've got to work with suspension-wise, and beyond that, it's mostly naught but fairly sharply diminishing returns on effort and expense. I reckon a little common sense is called for, without the foolishness of pretending that we can make a silk purse out o' a sow's ear. . . keeping in mind that no matter how much bolt-on high $$ "racing tackle" you strap on it, y'er still hamstrung by the Guzzi spine frame fundamentals. But now I'm merely blathering on. . . .

 

In any case, I b'lieve there's no possible way to realize the superb handling and road manners (IMHO, by Road Geez standards anyway ) that the Guzzi is capable of -- again -- for ROAD purposes, NOT necessarily TRACK, though I b'lieve there IS very significant overlap!

 

I'm living proof that you don't need to have much of any riding skill to appreciate a well set-up Guzzi, though it certainly don't hurt none -- and I agree with wot you've said. There's always plenty to be learned from her when she's dialed-in correctly. Without having a proper match of spring rates to load and getting the laden and unladen sags (preload) correct for starters, any other suspension effort is pretty much whistlin' in the wind.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMM very well -- but not too durn likely -- V.

 

Happy sag chasing.

[dlaing]

I reckon a little common sense is called for, without the foolishness of pretending that we can make a silk purse out o' a sow's ear. . . keeping in mind that no matter how much bolt-on high $$ "racing tackle" you strap on it, y'er still hamstrung by the Guzzi spine frame fundamentals. But now I'm merely blathering on. . . .

What exactly hamstrings us?

I am slowly working on making a silk purse out of my sow's ear, and need to know about these alleged limitations.

There are some problems, but I can conceive a solution for almost all of the problems that I have thought of.

The frame can be made more rigid with bracing.

Weight can be lessened and moved forward by converting the rear subframe to a lighter weight mono posto.

Unsprung weight can be removed through the use of forged wheels, alloy bearing spacers, ceramic bearings, titanium bolts, etc.

You can put the world's finest shocks and forks on the bike.

You can put the world's finest brakes on the bike.

What have I overlooked? That my silk purse made from a sow's ear is empty and I cannot afford gas? Sure, but it is still cheaper than a Ducati 999 or BMW R1200S. The bike has that Guzzi patented, je ne sais quois, and I have a connection to it. No, the resale value will not be equal to the other bikes, and I would lose in a race, but lap times and re-selling are not my goals.

There is no absolutely right or wrong way to evolve your Guzzi.

If you want to trust the dealer when they tell you the OEM suspension is set up right, then you may well be happy living in your happy OEM world, just don't be surprised if you get speed wobble issues.

If you want to limit your suspension upgrade budget to adjusted preload that is fine. But you might do better for the price of springs and installation.

If you want to do that and add on thousand dollar shock, more power to you.

Uprade the fork damping??? Sure, why not, it is only money, but you will get a better ride.

Full Ohlins on an ol' sow??? Sure why not? The Guzzzi is the greatest bike design on Earth and it deserves great stuff.

You got mo' money, and want the Superbike gear, GO FOR IT! Yeah baby!

Carbon fiber wheels and brake rotors, radial mounted calibers, titanium bolts, uh huh! Just beware the resale value is lost, but you got money in the bank, so who cares....

PS money spent on track school is also said to be a good investment

[Alex-Corsa]

 

PS money spent on track school is also said to be a good investment

 

Yep that's also bit of hype ,after a point though ,cause road conditions are night-day difference with the track.

You got traffic situations , or stupid car drivers to face , not to mention various street conditions, with water, and dry alternating sometimes, perhaps some bumps and or unexpected objects may came in your way.

Appart from learning the control and perhaps the limmits of the bike-self in track there is nothing more there to inherit or do, in fact inheriting a style that would be "drive fast" that is a bad habbit that when taken to the street sooner or latter one can be dead or injured (probably hard).

 

And I see all the hype of the motorcyclism in nowadays, because the companies find nothing more to develop , than mostly the power of the bike, turn up with bikes (vast majority) with redicoulusly many PS (100% unsusfeull for the street) and then there is this tale to get people to track (of coursce cause that' where these bikes can only be usefull) with the *excuse* that his is going to give them the edge also usefull for street riding.

Sorry , let's don't bite the bate.

 

As about suspension, what guzzi has is one of the good ones, and yes though there are some better isn;t as much a necessity(a good maintenance is).Other hard tunning stuff (cams , valves clutches, ect.ect.)since ,tunning costs (unless at the moment one can say that;s my bike and I'll always keep it )isn't also as well something to look for.