Budget Tuning

[Guzzirider]

I take my hat off to all the guys who make fantastic Guzzi specials- especially in Germany where their enthusiasm knows no bounds.

 

If you want to tweak your Guzzi I say go for it- don't let the doubters hold you back. Yes you will be throwing money at it without a massive return, but what the hell, you only live once. If we all made sensible decisions based on fiscal good sense we would all drive a Skoda deisel and would not touch a motorbike with a bargepole!

 

You will never make it as fast as a GSXR1000, but when you pull into the bike park on your loud stylish Guzzi special you know who will have the biggest grin.

 

[dlaing]

Yep that's also bit of hype ,after a point though ,cause road conditions are night-day difference with the track.

You could be right.

The number of pro racers that die on the street may be proportional to or higher than the average per capita.

The bottom line is not to get in over your head.

If you can increase your ability and not push it harder, you are doing a good thing.

But yah, the ego boost can be bigger than the boost in talent.

I still need more talent.

[Guest ratchethack]

What exactly hamstrings us?

I am slowly working on making a silk purse out of my sow's ear, and need to know about these alleged limitations.

There are some problems, but I can conceive a solution for almost all of the problems that I have thought of.

The frame can be made more rigid with bracing.

Weight can be lessened and moved forward by converting the rear subframe to a lighter weight mono posto.

Unsprung weight can be removed through the use of forged wheels, alloy bearing spacers, ceramic bearings, titanium bolts, etc.

You can put the world's finest shocks and forks on the bike.

You can put the world's finest brakes on the bike.

What have I overlooked? . . .

(. . . .sigh. . . .) Hmmm. I was trying to apply "common sense" as might be appropriate to the title of the thread. What was I thinking?

 

"alleged limitations", Dave? Where to start . . . ?

 

On THIS planet, we have to deal with a few constraints placed on us by Earth Physics. . . .

 

Per a previous post on this, you can bolt a Lotus Elise suspension into a Kenworth, but y'er Kenworth is never gonna handle like an Elise. It'll handle like a Kenworth with a badly mismatched suspension....

 

Uh, well Dave, I hate to burst the bubble of y'er extreme fantasy here, but if a "silk purse" to you means something close to "modern" World Class performance (which I reckon most of us ain't after, or we'd have bought World Class performance motorcycles to start with) the reality is that there isn't enough money or unobtanium on this planet to bolt on y'er Guzzi in replacement of other stuff to transport a V-11 into the same solar system, let alone to the same planet. Not remotely within an intergalactic chip-shot.

 

Let's see if I can think of a few features of the V-11 Guzzi not possible to shoehorn into a modern World Class performance ballpark, even with industrial hydraulics. Nay, there's too many to mention. Let's just take two -- weight and rwhp. It's impossible to think of vehicle performance in terms of chassis tuning without considering weight, and without thinking of power-to-weight ratio. We'll use a '07 Yamaha YZF-R1 as a yardstick for modern World Class performance, since they're both "open class" bikes, though the Yammerhammer is giving up 140+cc to the Guzzi:

 

My Sport weighs 530 lbs. with a half-tank of fuel. YZF-R1, let's say 400 lb. That's ~25% less weight.

 

My Sport is probably putting out somewhere near 80 rwhp. YZF-R1, probably 160 rwhp. That's 100% greater rwhp.

 

That's a power to weight ratio of .15 f'er the V-11 and .4 f'er the YZF-R1. That's a delta of 270%!

 

Now without going too far into cattle-prodding such numerous and undeniable elephants in the corner as the considerable rearward weight bias of shaft drive and the horrendous mass of an additional 20 lb. bevel transmission of unsprung weight in the rear hub of the already relatively very heavy Guzzi wheels just yet, let's stick with the basics and look at what some might consider "common sense" in terms of "real world" performance limitations of the Guzzi f'er the road relative to a modern World Class performance bike.

 

As quoted in a previous post, y'er Pal Eraldo Feracci said that 140 hp for the V-11 Guzzi is "no problem". Now you may well believe this, Dave. But I don't buy it -- not even close, and frankly I reckon few but the most gullible and poorly informed would buy it. IMHO, it might be possible to make as much as 110 or so reliable, usable, tractable, real-world rwhp with very extensive tuning and end up with a motor that will both idle and tolerate normal road use (conventionally aspirated) -- and also go at least a few years of use without beating itself to death. Sure. But though I believe it might be possible , I've never heard of this being done from a credible source myself, and I believe it'd take lots more money and a month o' Sundays more time than simply buying a second motorcycle -- a YZF-R1, f'er example. . . .

 

Now Dave, whilst y'er replacing that stock steel wheel spacer with a titanium one for a few grams worth of weight savings and changing out stock wheel bearings with ceramic to save a few more grams -- both running inside the hub of that whopping 20 lb. bevel drive , and bracing up the frame with even more afterthought triangulation and gusseting (why not use titanium bracing here too, long's y'er wallet's wide open?), do you imagine that the net effect of doing both is taking weight OFF the 530 lb. V-11 -- or that shaving off a few grams of weight in the center of a 20 lb. hub is making any perceptible difference whatsoever to unsprung weight?

 

Many's the small aftermarket OEM that has engineered a frame for the Guzzi donk chasing superior chassis performance, and many more's the privateer who's done the same. You have to admire their accomplishments. I note that the ones that start with the spine frame all seem to start by binning the frame -- not by attempting to apply more lipstick to the pig (so to speak).

 

But in terms of your own expectations and planned expenditures of time and money, Dave, do you imagine that your carbon-fiber and dish-head titanium fastened vision of an extensively crutched-up, extended-kluge spine frame would be anywhere nearly as light, strong, AND as flex-free as any "modern" highly engineered alloy perimeter frame -- such as on the YZF-R1?

 

Or would you consider y'er "silk purse" successful and satisfactory with the achievement of something less than closing a 270% delta in power to weight ratio with a modern performance bike? Maybe just 100%? 50%? 10%?

 

. . .What have I overlooked? . . .

Err.....why, not a thing, Dave. I reckon you've covered the waterfront! . . .

 

Some of us recognize and appreciate the V-11 for wot she is, not f'er wot she isn't and never can be.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV.

[Guest Eric123]

I talked to a parts guy at a Ducati dealership, and he suggested the Metezler P6's. He quoted me about $280 for the two. I think that is a good start, plus I need to get the bar risers, but right now MPH Cycles said there are out of the as of right now. I think the kit is around $300 plus labor.

 

Anyone have any recommendations for fork oil? I get lots of squeaks going over bumps. Or maybe that is not the case. . .

[Guest ratchethack]

I talked to a parts guy at a Ducati dealership, and he suggested the Metezler P6's. He quoted me about $280 for the two. I think that is a good start, plus I need to get the bar risers, but right now MPH Cycles said there are out of the as of right now. I think the kit is around $300 plus labor.

 

Anyone have any recommendations for fork oil? I get lots of squeaks going over bumps. Or maybe that is not the case. . .

Eric, I think you mean the Metz Z6. I'm getting ready for my second Z6 rear. Going front & rear at the same time was a treat, I think you'll be very pleased.

 

If you've got squeaks in the fork, I reckon you've got a serious situation! More'n likely, it's coming from a loose fastener somewhere or you've got somethin' else goin' on.

 

I highly recommend synth. Cartridge Fork Fluid such as 125/150, as opposed to lower-grade dino Fork Oil. After running 10 wt and going to 7.5 wt. Fork Oil, I finally wised up. 125/150 is the rough equivalent of 5 wt. Fork Oil, but being an entirely different class of lubricant, it provides a superior service life. It gives you greater range of adjustment on y'er damping settings than 10 wt or 7.5 wt.. Since it's lower viscosity, for general road use, it allows you to use more of the damping adjustment scale. 'Nother words, you can dial in more clicks to achieve a given damping effect with a finer gradient of adjustment, rather than setting 'em on the lower numbers with only big jumps between the settings y'er actually using.

[Guest Eric123]

Eric, I think you mean the Metz Z6. I'm getting ready for my second Z6 rear. Going front & rear at the same time was a treat, I think you'll be very pleased.

 

If you've got squeaks in the fork, I reckon you've got a serious situation! More'n likely, it's coming from a loose fastener somewhere or you've got somethin' else goin' on.

 

I'd recommend synth. Cartridge Fork Fluid such as 125/150, as opposed to the lower-grade Fork Oil. After running 10 wt and going to 7.5 wt. Fork Oil, I finally wised up. Gives you much greater range of adjustment on y'er damping settings.

 

Oh yeah, right--weren't P6's Pirellis? I hope the squeaks aren't anything too serious, but I admit the bike does need to go into the shop. . .

[dlaing]

 

Or would you consider y'er "silk purse" successful and satisfactory with the achievement of something less than closing a 270% delta in power to weight ratio with a modern performance bike? Maybe just 100%? 50%? 10%?

I think it is already a silk purse, even when it was all OEM.

The Sachs shock is the next thing that will be leaving the bike.

Will that increase the power to weight ratio? Probably not.

But the shock that replaces it will make it an even finer silk purse, regardless.

There are many ways to improve the bike, including making it lighter.

If all I wanted was lighter and faster, yah, I would buy something else.

But Guzzis have what YZF-R1s don't.

And no money in the world can make an R1 equal to a Guzzi.

I though you understood that.

I'd love to have 100HP at the crank. 160HP is overkill for my needs.

I would also love if the bike weighed 400lbs, but if I could shed just 40 from it, that would be a very good thing.

The Guzzi is not about keeping up with the Joneses. It is about keeping up with your dreams.

[Alex-Corsa]

I'd love to have 100HP at the crank. 160HP is overkill for my needs.

 

 

You can easily get 100+HP at the crank by making it twin spark per cylinder, and typicaly add some head porting bit more than that.Daes mototec an Dynotec here in Europe are profissient to that.

So there you go.

[Guest ratchethack]

This is gettin’ somewhat interestin’. . . The thread's already gone feckless. Let's just go for frivolity now.

There are some problems, but I can conceive a solution for almost all of the problems that I have thought of.

Err…..I reckon power, weight, and power-to-weight ratio must be among the problems that slipped by you, then?

I am slowly working on making a silk purse out of my sow's ear, and need to know about these alleged limitations.

That was yesterday, wasn’t it? Dave, to each his own, and to every man his dream, but you seem to be floppin' all about the compass dial here. It’s hard to figure out which way y'er likely to go next. Back then, you were “slowly working on” it… Wot happened between yesterday and today?

I think it is already a silk purse, even when it was all OEM.

It would seem that suddenly, y’er already there?! Whenceforth and wherefore wilt thou be going next, then, Dave?!

The Guzzi is not about keeping up with the Joneses. It is about keeping up with your dreams.

Ah, I see. This could explain y'er compass needle being on perpetual spin cycle. . .

 

So the Guzzi is a nice, soft and fluffy thing, a billowy white cloud drifting with the balmy breezes across a clear blue sky -- so vacuous and dreamy! Kinda ethereal even. There are no bad, bad, negative earthly limits holding us back! Whatever the imagination can conceive of -- why, it's possible! Unbind those goose wings, spread them wide and let fly y'er dreams!

 

By all means, leave us sprinkle the magic pixiedust with wild abandon and be FREE!

 

Guzziland is DREAMLAND, where wot could be, should be! And if I want it to be -- therefore, IT IS!!

 

D’you reckon the fluffy cloud/balmy breeze Never-neverland pixiedust fantasy thing would fly as ad copy at Piaggio, Dave? Maybe they could get Michael Jackson in green tights to play Peter Pan in their ads?!

 

So is it still y’er pipe-dream to do the following -- or since evidently now it’s suddenly ALREADY a "silk purse" -- Wot?!:

The frame can be made more rigid with bracing.

Weight can be lessened and moved forward by converting the rear subframe to a lighter weight mono posto.

Unsprung weight can be removed through the use of forged wheels, alloy bearing spacers, ceramic bearings, titanium bolts, etc.

Carbon fiber wheels and brake rotors, radial mounted calibers, titanium bolts, uh huh!

Well Dave, I reckon y’got me by the tweeter. This sure sounds like a fantasy dream monument to something alright, but if it ain’t “keeping up with the Joneses”, I sure ain’t got a clue wot it is, unless it’s a trailer queen/show bike y'er after?? If photo’s on the Web are any evidence, the woods seem to be full of ‘em, but I reckon not too many of ‘em get many road miles. D’you plan on getting any miles on y’er Guzzi at all on the grand journey toward those “not keeping up with the Joneses” pipe-dreams, or while you've got all those steel bearings out for replacement with ceramic, will you be purchasing another bike to use to fetch all that carbon fiber, ceramic, titanium, and all the other exotic butt-jewelry that plenty o' Joneses somewhere are sure to have on their Guzzi's? And what of y’er plans, once you've achieved the list above? Does this go on and on into perpetuity? Will NASA rocket scientists be involved? Jet Propulsion Laboratories? Area 51?? Remulac Anti-matter Materials & Technologies??

 

Is this the knight-errant’s “Impossible Dream”, Dave? Where’s Don Quixote and Dulcinea? Where’s Sancho Panza?

 

It seems you've brought ceramic, carbon fiber, and titanium parts to wot started as an inquiry on "budget tuning"! My, my! Just look how far afield we've come.....

 

Ah, but in so many ways, we all have our own windmills to tilt at, eh? I must say that yours certainly are imaginative, Dave.

 

BTW – Aren’t “radial mounted calibers” a reference to 30 caliber machine guns they used on WW I biplanes with radial engines and timing mechanisms for the guns, so’s they could shoot through the propellers without shootin’ ‘em off? Are you dreaming of a blinged-out Guzzi Suburban Assault Vehicle?? Best call the Teutul's at O.C.C. -- now there's a team to help you build dreams of monumental bling!

 

So very many unanswered questions……

 

And of course enquiring minds just gotta know!

[Alex-Corsa]

The frame can be made more rigid with bracing.

 

Believe me you don't wanna do this.The steel that Guzzi uses for the frame is the one used on gun barels (41XX series steel, or the 4140), rigid enough , yet elastic enough to "forgive" ,and stand through time.

True story , a person I know working in the gun industry took one time an old monza frame for testing wich showed remarkable withstand on lbs/sq.inch for a steel.

[pete roper]

You can easily get 100+HP at the crank by making it twin spark per cylinder, and typicaly add some head porting bit more than that.Daes mototec an Dynotec here in Europe are profissient to that.

So there you go.

 

Alex, I'd have to say that getting 100HP at the crank on a Guzzi big twin is never going to be *easy* and it's going to radically tax various aspects of the engine, never mind the rest of the machine and reliability WILL be compromised.

 

Dave, surely all the benefits from the titalium, ceramic etc. bits will immediately be negated by the extra weight of any frame bracing? Look, you and anyone else are obviously free to do anything you like to your machines but the originator of this post asked for cheap tuning options. Few, if any, things will get you the immediate improvement in point to point times that getting your suspension sorted will, I think that's really all I and probably Hackster, were trying to say.

 

Pete

[dlaing]

Alex, I'd have to say that getting 100HP at the crank on a Guzzi big twin is never going to be *easy* and it's going to radically tax various aspects of the engine, never mind the rest of the machine and reliability WILL be compromised.

 

Dave, surely all the benefits from the titalium, ceramic etc. bits will immediately be negated by the extra weight of any frame bracing? Look, you and anyone else are obviously free to do anything you like to your machines but the originator of this post asked for cheap tuning options. Few, if any, things will get you the immediate improvement in point to point times that getting your suspension sorted will, I think that's really all I and probably Hackster, were trying to say.

 

Pete

Hackster is trying to say that you must do it roughly as he does it, or you are an ass.

The V11 is already allegedly putting out about 90HP at the crank.

100HP should be easily done.

Getting 100HP at the rear wheel would be a greater challenge.

You might need to put a BMW R1200 crank and jugs on it to do that.

 

I can say without reservation that the way my bike handles now is in a different league altogether from wot came from Mandello, prior to chassis setup!

 

snip

 

I reckon a little common sense is called for, without the foolishness of pretending that we can make a silk purse out o' a sow's ear. . . keeping in mind that no matter how much bolt-on high $$ "racing tackle" you strap on it, y'er still hamstrung by the Guzzi spine frame fundamentals. But now I'm merely blathering on. . . .

And you want me to sit by and not disagree with his narrow vision of how one should treat their beloved Guzzi?

[dlaing]

Heh! Apparently it is possible to make silk purses out of sow's ears

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...,881621,00.html

But making sow's ears out of silk purses has elluded scientists

[Guest ratchethack]

...I'd have to say that getting 100HP at the crank on a Guzzi big twin is never going to be *easy* and it's going to radically tax various aspects of the engine, never mind the rest of the machine and reliability WILL be compromised.

The V11 is already allegedly putting out about 90HP at the crank.

100HP should be easily done.

It could happen, it should happen, and by gosh, golly and gee whiz, Pete! It seems that our ever-so-friendly visitors with us here from other planets and galaxies far far away are evidently here to teach us wot nought but their imaginations tell them WILL HAPPEN!

 

Pete, y'er obviously suffering from negativity, narrow vision, possibly neuritis, neuralgia, and the heartbreak of psoriasis.

 

I reckon you need a little visit from Dingaling, Twinkletoes, and Michael Jackson to cheer you up and enlighten you!

 

After all -- who better to learn REAL Guzzi motor physics from, than those who're evidently capable of transporting themselves into the wild blue yonder without benefit of aircraft??

 

Per post above, look up in the sky with our airy fairy friends and let them sprinkle their pixiedust in y'er eyes. It's bound to give you a brand new perspective you hadn't considered before.

 

(Uh, with Wacko Jacko around, best not bend over at any point during the visit. . .)

[quazi-moto]

I'd lose the stock Bridgestones pronto. Especially the front tire! I'm runnin' Diablos at the moment and the difference is like night & day. In terms of cheap performance upgrades I would have to start by saying that these bikes run lean to begin with and the addition of cans, crossovers, pods, etc. will only make it leaner so any change there pretty much necessitates either a power commander or non-stock ECU. A pair of Staintunes and a PCIII would be a basic starting point along with a good setup of the TPS and throttle bodies. I took mine a few steps further with an aftermarket crossover, open lid air filter and the My15M ECU. In hindsight I probably could have done without the lidless air filter kit, but at this point I won't be changing it back to stock. I might even give the pods a try. I had a PCIII before the My15M, but it wasn't the ultimate solution for the bike's fuel injection woes. I had it re-mapped twice by two different dealers and it still didn't run right. With the My15M it took some minor tweaking (and needs a tad more tweaking) to get the bike running good, but this is a little more costly than the PCIII. Its definitely worth it though if the old budget allows! I still have to fatten up the map in the midrange ever so slightly to get the old girl running truly sweet, but right now it runs better than when it was bone stock. Future upgrades will be mostly suspension items and maybe a few cosmetic things. Aside from a few growing pains I've been very satisfied with this bike. Its not a rocket by any means, but it just exudes character.