Budget Tuning

[Guest Eric123]

Don't worry the old tires are going very soon. I also figured that the most of the budget is going to get some things sorted out, like suspension and a valve job. I have been thinking about a CPU upgrade, because I get terrible pinging on hard acceleration--I do agree that the bike seems to run very lean. So far I love the bike--it definitely has a lot of character, it gets complements galore, and it is even Italian beige!!

[Guest Mattress]

Don't worry the old tires are going very soon. I also figured that the most of the budget is going to get some things sorted out, like suspension and a valve job. I have been thinking about a CPU upgrade, because I get terrible pinging on hard acceleration--I do agree that the bike seems to run very lean. So far I love the bike--it definitely has a lot of character, it gets complements galore, and it is even Italian beige!!

 

Since owning my 2004 V11, I've always been a little surprised when I read of posters dealing with pinging issues. It makes me wonder why my personal bike is so free of this issue. I've never heard it ping at all (and I know what that sounds like). I feel a flat spot that others know about, but acceleration has always been trouble free.

 

Could there have been a calibration improvement at sometime? I have always been careful to look for ethanol-free gas when ever I top up. Could this be helping me? Could this help others?

 

Knowing the rumours of less than stellar MG tolerances, could the problem lie somewhere in the timing system, signal pick up location or alignment etc? As far as adjusting timing, I think My ECU is the only choice other than stock ECU programming. How would you know you are not just covering up an underlying problem?

 

For the record the only mod to mine is a pair of lovely sounding Staintunes. Also, the last few hundred miles at the end of last season I ran a slightly colder plug that my mechanic installed cause his experience. I didn't notice any difference, still no pinging.

 

That said I would dual plug mine if I had the spare money. For efficiency, not power gains.

[dlaing]

Since owning my 2004 V11, I've always been a little surprised when I read of posters dealing with pinging issues.

I can't speak for others, but some of my pinging has been muffler induced, some open airbox, and some TPS setting.

I have had trouble getting consistent TPS readings. YMMV, but I have had less pinging since my last TPS adjustment, but worse fuel consumption.

What impresses me is the bikes that have no pinging that average better than 40MPG (US)

It gives me hope that I could have the same, maybe after the engine breaks in at about 50,000 miles

Oil consumption has also boggled my mind.

I was consuming a fair amount of oil, and then it got better and there was almost no consumption for two oil changes, but now I am consuming oil again...same oil, same oil filter, and the weather is colder, which I thought would reduce consumption. One factor that seems to increase the oil consumption is spending alot of time above 5000 RPM....probably need a windage plate.

[Guest ratchethack]

Dave, most of the year I get no pinging at all. But in hot weather I get it occasionally at lower elevations, as do many V-11's, as I'm sure you know very well. Let's face it -- our "best" corn-squeezin's contaminated gas here in CA ain't exactly our Guzzi's favorite beverage. However, with the identical bike to y'ers, I get 40+ mpg, smooth, strong, essentially flawless engine performance without any flat spots, and use very little or no oil at all between changes. In hot weather, I can "ride around" engine loading situations where it pings without too much fuss.

 

To my knowledge, there's no possible way that your pinging can be "induced" by mufflers or open airbox as you've said above (?), though you may notice it more or less at different times according to fluctuations in temp and barometric pressure. IIRC, humidity also plays a role.

 

As I think you probably understand, in some circumstances, slight richening can decrease ping to a limited degree, depending on many other variables, but it is NOT by any means a "cure". In the best of cases WRT ping, if it does any good at all, it's more like a tiny band-aid effect. I suspect you've discovered long ago that there's no "mapping it out" with TuneBoy.

 

Since you've got a chronic oil consumption situation, as mentioned before in previous posts, this is almost certainly due to blow-by resulting from rings never seating properly during break-in due to lack of adequate compression pressure behind the rings (per the Motoman philosophy), and heavy cylinder glazing, which is the primary symptom of rings that have never seated. As long as y'er not leaking oil or throwing it out past the seals, all the proof you need of this is the amount of oil y'er using, which by process of elimination, means y'er burning it and/or pumping it into the airbox. You may or may not have evidence of oil fouling on the plugs, or be able to see a telltale bluish exhaust haze behind you on the road under certain conditions. Evidence of excessive oil in y'er airbox through the breather and condenser from excess crankcase pressurization would be the clincher. This situation is NOT one that will ever improve with mileage, it only gets progressively worse on an accelerating downward spiral.

 

Blow-by prevents full cylinder filling and full compression. More than this, since the lower oil control rings have also not seated and cannot control oil laden windage coming up past the rings on the cylinder walls, it also contaminates the intake charge with oil, which is a major cause of ping. Beyond this, it creates a host of nasty carbon/coking accumulations in the heads and on the valves that is not normal and is far from desirable. Excessive carbon buildup in the heads itself then becomes an additional cause of ping, contributing to the already existing symptoms. Blow-by also results in toxic acid buildup in the oil, degrading its lubrication properties, decreasing its service life and prematurely oxidizing engine components.

 

Now this is just me, but I'd seriously consider honing the cylinders, de-carbonizing the heads, and a first class ring job, followed by a faithful application of Motoman's break-in procedure. On the Guzzi, it's straightforward and as easy as it ever gets on any engine I can conceive of. I'd do it myself to ensure quality control, but you can no doubt find a good shop somewhere that could do it up properly. Y'er Pals at Sonny Angel's come to mind. Yep, while y'er in there, best have the valves out f'er a thorough inspection and if the guides are worn, K-line 'em, making it a comprehensive top-end job.

 

After break-in and proper seating of new rings, I'd expect a brand new bike in terms of engine operation and performance. It'd be my expectation that you'd be killing 2 big birds with one stone (oil consumption and a great deal of the pinging) and more than likely enjoy a considerable boost in power and improved fuel economy as nice premiums for y'er effort.

 

Put it this way, Dave -- I b'lieve you'd find that doing this would give y'er Guzzi a new lease on life, and make a significant, real-world, documentable performance improvement -- unlike y'er previously stated interest in titanium wheel spacers and ceramic bearings, which IMHO are neither reasonable, nor justifiable expenditures under any conditions, road or track.

 

Now this is just me, but putting a Roper plate on an engine suffering from chronic blow-by couldn't hurt, and it might even help a little by decreasing windage and slowing the rate of oil pumping into the airbox, but IMHO it'd be the equivalent of givin' Golf Pro instruction to a patient suffering from chronic congestive heart failure. But then again, if you decide to go after the root cause of y'er pinging and oil consumption problem and do a top end job, long as y'er in there, it wouldn't be a bad idea to throw a Roper plate in as good long-term insurance against premature loss of the bottom end. By all indications, my Roper plate works like a Peach, as advertized.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV

[raz]

Since you've got a chronic oil consumption situation, as mentioned before in previous posts, this is almost certainly due to blow-by resulting from rings never seating properly during break-in, and heavy cylinder glazing, which is the primary symptom of rings that have never seated. As long as y'er not leaking oil or throwing it out through the seals, all the proof you need of this is the amount of oil y'er using, which by process of elimination, means y'er burning. You may have evidence of oil fouling on the plugs. Telltale evidence of excessive oil in y'er airbox through the breather would be the clincher. This situation is NOT one that will ever improve with mileage, it only gets progressively worse on a downward spiral.

 

Blow-by contaminates the intake charge with oil and is a major cause of ping. Beyond this, it creates a host of nasty carbon/coking accumulations in the heads and on the valves that is not normal and is far from desirable. Carbon buildup in the heads itself then becomes another cause of ping, another aspect of a snowball effect resulting from the main cause.

Sorry for hi-jacking an already hi-jacked thread, but this caught my attention. My heads happen to be off right now and there are serious accumulations in them and on the pistons. Like half a milimeter thick all over. I haven't lifted the barrels yet but a look down them with the piston down show a good looking finish with hone marks. I have been puzzled with this since the heads went off a couple of weeks ago. Putting things together right now as I write this, I have also seen some blue exhaust smoke and lots of oil through the air filter from the breather. Though I didn't have to add any oil between changes (might have been a tad too much to begin with, wasn't me...)

 

Now I just want to confirm I get this right. Are you saying the rings are not holding back the pressure above them, so the pressure builds up in the sump and eventually pushes oil through the breather, resulting in automagic oiling of the K&N filter ? And what I should do is check them rings to start with?

 

BTW, what is Motoman's break-in procedure?

[Guest ratchethack]

Now I just want to confirm I get this right. Are you saying the rings are not holding back the pressure above them, so the pressure builds up in the sump and eventually pushes oil through the breather, resulting in automagic oiling of the K&N filter ? And what I should do is check them rings to start with?

 

BTW, what is Motoman's break-in procedure?

Raz, blow-by is the loss of combustion chamber pressure past the compression rings. It means they aren't capable of providing the level of seal against combustion pressure that they're designed to provide. When new, rings aren't yet "seated". They have to wear-in properly against the freshly honed cylinder walls. Without proper break-in, they cannot seat properly or form an adequate seal. Yes, this causes excessive crankcase pressurization that overwhelms the breather and oil condenser, and pukes oil into the airbox. This has been a well-recognized scenario by Guzzi Pro's for I reckon as long as Guzzi's have had their breathers routed through condensors into the airbox.

 

One of the more knowledgeable Forum Pro's will soon weigh in here (I hope -- 'cause I ain't no Pro, and if pushed too much further, as a non-Pro Journeyman Shade Tree Mechanic, I'll soon be in danger of gettin' in over me head ), but with y'er symptoms as stated, and especially since the heads are already off, I'd at least consider breaking the glaze on those cylinders with a hone, and also check ring end-gaps while the pistons are out. In any case, I'd encourage you to get a read from the Pro's!!

 

Speaking of Pro's, before I get myself in too much trouble here, let me quickly defer to a guy I consider a real authority:

 

MOTOMAN!!

 

I like Motoman's break-in approach and his entire schpiel for the following reasons:

 

1. It agrees with the break-in technique I've successfully used on dozens of rebuilt and new engines since I was a kid, including the Guzzi. It's been 100% effective for me, and its tough to argue with this kind of a track record: Every single engine I've ever broken in with this technique has never used any oil between changes.

 

2. He's documented his conclusions extensively over many hundreds of engines.

 

3. The evidence he lays out and presents so well at the link below is conclusive, IMHO.

 

May this lend insight and forever be y'er guiding light, as it has so faithfully been mine:

 

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

 

I sincerely hope this helps!

[raz]

Raz, blow-by is the loss of combustion chamber pressure past the compression rings. It means they aren't capable of providing the level of seal against combustion pressure that they're designed to provide. When new, rings aren't yet "seated". They have to wear-in properly against the freshly honed cylinder walls. Without proper break-in, they cannot seat properly or form an adequate seal. Yes, this causes excessive crankcase pressurization that overwhelms the breather and oil condenser, and pukes oil into the airbox. This has been a well-recognized scenario by Guzzi Pro's for I reckon as long as Guzzi's have had their breathers routed through the condensors into the airbox.

OK thanks. This may be it. But I've only owned this bike one season. If the oil level was far too high during some period in the bike's previous life, that could also be the reason for those symptoms, right? When I got it, the oil level was at least 5 mm above max. on the stick. I didn't suck it out because I figured it wouldn't be fatal. The oil level may or may not have been even higher and much higher at some time. So either I re-hone and replace rings now, or I'll just remove the deposits and check again next winter. I think I'll have to contemplate.

And is there anything telling me it's not the valve guides? Is the fact that the barrels look like they were just honed a bad thing, that backs up the blow-by/glazing theory? Or would it look that way anyway if all is good?

 

May this lend insight and forever be y'er guiding light, as it has so faithfully been mine:

 

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

 

I sincerely hope this helps!

I bet it's controversial. Just listening to my guts, I'm a believer

[Guest ratchethack]

Raz, now that you qualify things a bit further here, there's certainly no need f'er jumping to conclusions. I agree that an ounce of contemplation trumps pounds of unnecessary cure f'er wot may not be broke! Overfilling can and will dump oil into the airbox via windage. I'd maintain the oil level as close to midpoint as practical and not worry about things unless & until there's lots more indications of blow-by to be concerned about, such as excessive oil use and blue exhaust smoke in addition to continued loading of the airbox with oil.

 

IIRC, moderate to low glazing on cylinder walls can be difficult to see. Seeing a cross-hatch pattern on the cylinder walls through the glazing is possible, as I've had this experience many times, though a brownish caste is a dead give-away, and I've also seen this many times. I defer to superior Pro exprience here on how to detect glazing buildup with pistons in place. With pistons out, it's lots easier to detect a contrast between the bore swept by the rings and the bore below where the rings reach at BDC.

 

One o' the more endearing features of our beloved throwback/retro pushrod motor designs is that on top of this, we also have the justification/advantage that our valve guides theoretically receive better lubrication than "modern" engines, because of the fact that we also have no valve guide seals to worry about wearing out!

 

There's an easy way to check for oil use past worn valve guides. With engine at full operating temperature, find a long downhill, get up to speed, chop the throttle, and keep it in gear all the way downhill with throttle closed. If you can have an observer behind you it helps. At the bottom of the hill, accelerate hard. A plume of blue exhaust gives away oil sucked through excessively worn guides every time.

 

Best of luck and by all means, post back with results.

[dlaing]

As I think you probably understand, in some circumstances, slight richening can decrease ping to a limited degree, depending on many other variables, but it is NOT by any means a "cure". In the best of cases WRT ping, if it does any good at all, it's more like a tiny band-aid effect. I suspect you've discovered long ago that there's no "mapping it out" with TuneBoy.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV

No, I was able to eliminate it with TuneBoy, after tuning about three or four map revisions. TuneBoy can control ignition timing.

But your rant on K&N Filters effected me, and I put my airbox lid back on to help keep dirt out of my BMC filter.

I then had to undo my mapping and go back to the equivalent of a stock ECU with the PCIII map for a mistral muffler over-layed.

I lost a bit of power, but gained an extended service period on the air filter, and maybe longer engine life.

There is no pinging now, but fuel consumption is 30MPG commuting 7 miles, and about 35MPG hanging out with DanDiego.

I can hit 40MPG on the freeway if I get a slight tail wind.

I think I lost about 1MPG when I put the airbox lid back on.

I suspect it is running a bit rich.

I bought a Wide Band O2 sensor many months ago, but have procrastinated on installing it.

I should just do it, and get it tuned right!

By the way, I see Power Commander has a cool new tool

http://socal-guzzi.com/PHPBB/viewtopic.php?t=659

If link is broken, just go to

http://socal-guzzi.com/PHPBB/ and look for PCIII LCD