Elecrtical problem!

[dlaing]

Why Guzzi wouldnt put a .20 Euro rubber boot on the ECU posts to prevent this from happening is beyond me!

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Could be an after market marketing opportunity.

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Obviously something burnt through somewhere in the system that is causing the 15amp Headlight fuse to blow when i try to start.I just don't know how and where to diagnose .There must be a logical order to test ,

 

Oh, you want logic

The tricky thing is your symptoms seem to defy logic

But we know that is not possible, so let us not give up hope

Logically when you hit the start button and a fuse blows, it seems to indicate that current has flowed through the start switch and grounded out somewhere between the start switch and the solenoid. But all of those places should have been unscathed by a suddenly grounded battery. I suppose a melted wire harnass might do the damage.

You could start by probing the lead that activates the solenoid, the wire going to the solenoid, the socket terminals for the starter relay and the clutch switch wires.

I suppose if a harnass had melted, the damage would likely be betweent the starter solenoid and the clutch switch.

I don't know what reading you should get on the solenoid, so we'll skip that for now unless someone wants to fill us in on the appropriate Ohm reading.

Here is my best attempt at logical steps:

A) I would start by checking between the solenoid and the starter relay socket.

Pull the starter relay (forward most one) from the socket.

Pull all the fuses so you don't blow your ohm meter.

Pull the small wire off of the solenoid.

Keep the ignition key off.

Using a continuity or ohm meter check for continuity between the 87 terminal in the relay socket and wire going to the solenoid. Having proven the continuity to be fine, check for continuity between either the disconnected solenoid wire or the 87 terminal at the relays socket and ground. If you get continuity from that test, you have found your problem. If not, proceed to step B...

B) Check for continuity between ground and the 85 terminal of the starter relay socket. You should NOT have continuity, if you do have continuity, you found your problem. If not, proceed to step C...

C) Pull in the Clutch lever and simultaneously check for continuity between ground and the 85 terminal of the starter relay socket. You should NOT have continuity, if you do have continuity, you found your problem. If not, proceed to step D...

D) D is for for Drink...so, drink a beer and write us for more help....that is all I can muster up right now.

E) Reconnect Everything.

[mznyc]

Bravissimo!

Great the basic advice that I'm looking for!I'll try it next weekend,will be the soonest I can get to her,I'll keep ya posted.

Grazie d!!

Ciao,Michael

[mznyc]

Michael,

 

Try pulling the middle relay ,which is activated by the neutral switch, and putting it in place of the headlight relay ( 2nd from the front) and see if she runs. This only works with the side stand down.

 

If so, it's just the relay.

Hi docc,

Did what you suggested and in fact fuse does not blow and idiot lights stay on

.Unfortunately bike wont start,I think I fully discharged battery because it wont take a charge fron Battery Tender.Oh well guess I got to break down for an Oddessy.

I got an email to Dan in to for a full set.According to the diagram on Dan's site,it looks like there should be continuity between terminals 30 and 87a.But once again,Im an electronic novice so I may be way off base.Unfortunately volt-meter is in airline baggage purgatory with the rest of my tools.

Baggage handler>

Anyone know how to check a relay?

Thanks,

Michael

[Guest Gary Cheek]

Odds are your relays are quite well and healthy. The problem occurs in a circuit that becomes activated by that relay. You can wish it to be something (inexpensive) you can just plug in and fix but wishing likely will let you down.

 

You have already pretty well isolated the problem area. That is where you need to look.

[mznyc]

Hi Gary,

The thing that perplexes me is the fuse wont blow and the idiot lights stay on with the,probably,good relay.?

Spoke to Dan and he said he's never had a failure with GEI in this type of situation.So this leads me to believe you are correct.

But Ive never had a Battery Tender not being able to charge a LOW battery.Ive found that dead ones usually stay dead,and the BT cannot bring them back.Which is what's happening here.Left the Tender on the battery for a few weeks the tender does not go to maintanence mode ,like it should.

Also dont know what the previous owner did for battery maintenance.I dont think he rode it a regularly,dont know if he trickle charged it.It's also several years old.(I know a, battery if well maintained ,should last a long time,my Hondas always did)This is what started this whole problem ,I was trying to charge up a VERY low battery.

Once I get my tools back I'll see what kind of voltage the battery has.If it's dead I'll replace the battery along with the relay and let cha know what happens,

Thanks again for your input Gary and et all!!

Michael

[dlaing]

Hi docc,

Did what you suggested and in fact fuse does not blow and idiot lights stay on

If you replaced the five pin relay with a four pin relay, that might explain why it fixed fuse blowing.

However if you replaced it with a five pin, and got no fuse blowing, you may have found your problem...or not

[docc]

If you replaced the five pin relay with a four pin relay, that might explain why it fixed fuse blowing.

However if you replaced it with a five pin, and got no fuse blowing, you may have found your problem...or not

 

 

Ah,this is true. I forgot there were some 4-pin relays floating around out there.

 

In this case a four pin relay would not put power to the starter solenoid, so no start.

 

Make sure the relay is a five-pin. ( Sounds like you have those on the way.) And try the new relay with the headlamp bulb out. I've seen bulbs short when their filaments break.

 

Sharing eternal optimism, we'll keep looking for something simple ( and cheap).

[mznyc]

Hi Guys ,

Here's an update on problem.

I may be crazy,blind, senile,dyslexic but the switch fuse #4 is blowing not the Headlight fuse #5 as I stated in the original post!

All relays were GEI 5-pins,got new ones from pyro Dan repaced one at a time and still same symptoms.

Checked battery voltage,=12.8.

All lights,turn signals,horns work,fuse blows and all dash lights go out when I hold starter button down for second.I do hear the fuel injection start up sound before I hit starter button,but everything goes silent other than the click of the fuse blowing after I hit starter button.

Just replaced multi-tester and haven't checked continuity between starter solenoid and starter relay socket as dlaing had suggested but will try tomorrow.

Hope the new information helps in the diagnosis!

PS I put brand new Ti ECU in and no difference.

[raz]

I may be crazy,blind, senile,dyslexic but the switch fuse #4 is blowing not the Headlight fuse #5 as I stated in the original post!

We can't have you stuck this long a time so I'll go for a try again. Have you seen Carl's schematics? I guess this 2004 V11 Sport should be pretty similar to yours. Pretty nice compared to the one folded in my OHB anyway.

 

Please check what happens if you remove the starter relay (number 23 in Carl's drawing) and try pushing the starter. It can't start of course, but what we want to know is if fuse #4 still blows or not.

 

Are you sure you're crazy, blind, senile and dyslexic? I mean, are you sure the fault didn't move when you were moving relays around? If so, it's got to be a relay fault. The fact it's not common doesn't rule it out.

 

Don't worry, sooner or later we'll narrow this down. So keep us posted!

 

EDIT I now see you switched all relays. Still: are you sure the fault didn't move? First you said #5, then no fuse blows, and now you say #4. When did fuses start to blow again? Was that when switching to the new relays?

[mznyc]

Hi Raz,

Thanks for the words of encouragment and advice.The reason this has taken so long is my own fault and not the group.Got a lot of great advice from everybody,but with the lack of multi-tester(airline lost it during the Valentine's day storm) and being busy with work,I can only blame myself.I'm not a 100% sure the problem didn't move,just assumed I was wrong.I'll try pulling the relay tomorrow and see what happens.The fuses always blew when I hit the starter button.I did pull the starter relay and checked for continuity between treminals 30 & 87a and there was continuity,which there should be but aparrently doesn't prove that the relay is good.After flipping around relays and not marking them I'm not sure which relays were in which place when the problem started. I still haven't made all the checks that have been suggested so I don't want to give the impression that Iv'e given up yet,but wanted to give everybody an update,incase someone sees something Ive missed.

Thanks,

Michael!

[mznyc]

Update,

Took dlaing and carl's advice,

Pulled solenoid wire,try to start and fuse does not blow,re-install wire and fuse blows.

Checked continuity,between 87 terminal and sol wire,got it.

Checked for continuity between ground and terminal 85,dont have it.

Do we feel that it is safe to assume/believe that the solenoid is the culprit?

Thanks !!!

Michael

[dlaing]

How perplexing.

I suppose if the number 4 fuse blows, your bike must fall under the later wiring diagram

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/sch...t_Catalytic.gif

It does appear that the starter solenoid is the problem, but it could still be something else and the solenoid is just the feather that broke the gooses back

Too tired to think straight.... zzzzzzz

[dlaing]

Too tired to think straight.... zzzzzzz

Goood morning.

Yah, I think you are correct that the solenoid is bad.

But I don't have the confidence to send you off to buy a new starter solenoid...

Which raises another question: Does one have to buy the complete starter???

Anyone else agree that it is the solenoid?

[mznyc]

Hi d,

Yes they do sell them separately.Harpers has one for $78.Unfortunately there's nothing in the Guzzi shop manual about the solenoid :angry:I'm used to the Honda manuals which have every piece of the bike covered and how to troubleshoot them.

From what,you,Carl and Pyro Dan have suggested,and from the little Ive learned here,it does make a strong case that the solenoid is the guilty party.

I also forgot to mention Dan suggested jumping the two large connectors on the starter to see if it turns over,which it did,which hopefully proves that the starter is probably good.Dan also suggested to directly power solenoid from battery to lead where solenoid blk/brn wire connects,I did and nada.Another piece of evidence that the solenoid is kaput?

Hopefully this will be the fix,at $78 it would be a bargain to me.

Thanks again,solenoid should be in next week,I'll keep you updated,but in the meantime if anyone has a suggestion or wants to trow in their ,please do so!

Michael

[big J]

Why not take the solenoid to bits and give it a clean up?

 

I've not done a Guzzi one,but generally solenoids are just a sliding plunger that works against a spring.

 

Disconnect the starter or battery and take out the screws holding it together,it might just be stuck or shorted.