Pete Roper saves the day - probably not for the last time !

[pete roper]

Oh, great! I'd just written a bit of a blurb about Miles Long's driveshaft, (It was out of alignment by approx. 2 plines, 32* to my calibrated eye. Then the power crashed so I lost it and then one of our stupid F@cking cats decided it would be a *Really* bright idea to try and attack a Brown Snake in the back yard! So it's got bit, and we don't want to loose *another* one so it's off to the vet so we can kiss goodbye to $1,000 there. The town is full of bloody mental defectives because it's the Country Music Festival So I can't right now be bothered to write an analysis and rant on the problem.

 

Once my cheque book and good humour have recovered I'll try to

 

Pete

[Miles Long]

Rode the ill handling Ballabio down to Pete Roper's this morning...1.5 hours from the Southern Highlands on fun roads and very warm weather.

It took Pete about 10 seconds to recognise the misalignment & about 15 mins to fix it. Subsequent test ride was amazing....this is how a bike should handle...this was the silver bullet fix I'd been looking for.

I feel vindicated now that I wasn't imagining the crap handling that i'd learnt to live with for 20000ks,or that I'd hadn't set the up the suspension correctly...I can also now agree with many of the faithfull on this & other lists who insisted on defending the marque against my criticisms in this area.

It would be hard to know when the offending bits were assembled incorrectly, but my guess would be when I took the bike back to the dealer in the first few days of ownership with a leaky seal.

It's since had 3 services at Guzzi dealers, with me whinging constantly about said handling, & no-one's spotted it."Nothin wrong with the bike mate...you just gotta set it up right"

Enter Mr Roper...15mins & 10secs!!! Plus a coffee, a windage plate & tutorial on how to fit it.

The day got better, when I was thrown the keys to test ride the yellow Griso....very nice indeed, thank you Pete.

The day got even better again when we adjourned to the "office" in town to shoot the breeze over a coldie,

(well it was getting a bit hot),along with thousands of others (many,as Pete so eloquently put it, "with 10 gallon hats on 2 pint heads")in town for a music festival.

The ride home in the stifling heat was almost sublime....very relaxed ride on any surface on all the bends, no teeth grinding or sphincter puckering at all.

In all fairness I'd have to say this bike's now pretty much as good as my Nortons,might even be a bit quicker seeing as I can ride it round tight bends in confidence. Now how's that for the ultimate complement from moi!!

Again, thank you very much Pete for a great day & for your help & advice.

Hope the cat 's ok

Cheers

Miles

[pete roper]

Oh, the cat's fine! Tickety-Boo! Honky Dory! Then Erika says "Do you think this looks like a bite?" She has two suspiciously close marks on her wrist, then starts feeling Dizzy!!!! ARRRGH!

 

She's off at the hospital now, No, we don't think she's been bit, neither do the quacks! But better safe than sorry eh? Kids!? Don't bother!!!!

 

Pete

[belfastguzzi]

Kids!?

 

...Don't bother!!!!

...or else send them off to Austrail a y er

[Skeeve]

Oh, great! I'd just written a bit of a blurb about Miles Long's driveshaft, ...Then the power crashed so I lost it

 

Arg! [That's the generic expression of disappointment/frustration factor; it pales in comparison to the 'AAAUUUGGGHHHHHAARARARRGGGGGG!!!" I used to hear from undergrads after the computer ate their 10 page paper they'd been working on all day in the lab. It was especially heartfelt when I'd innocently ask them if they'd saved it at any time during their creative process, like I'd suggested to them when they first checked out the computer 6 hours before. (Hint: the answer was inevitably "No" with a gaze of "Whyever would I want to do that?") Ahh, for the good old days! ] Anyway, that is a right b@st@rd bit of luck...

 

and then one of our stupid F@cking cats decided it would be a *Really* bright idea to try and attack a Brown Snake in the back yard! So it's got bit, and we don't want to loose *another* one so it's off to the vet so we can kiss goodbye to $1,000 there.

 

2 Q's:

#1: Is that cat fixed? 'Cause why would you want to perpetuate stupidity if it's not? [Darwin in action]

#2: Why? It's a cat; they're replaceable. It's not like it's a dog w/ a personality & everything; it's a cat: they look at you solely as a food/heat source. If they can't effectively do their part in controlling the snake/rodent population, what good are they?

 

The town is full of bloody mental defectives because it's the Country Music Festival

Ah, now here's something we can agree upon! 'Bout the only thing going for Country music is the considerable percentage of really hot women performers involved therein. Now if they'd just quit their whining!

 

Good luck w/ the feline; my mom just had to give hers away, as he'd developed the annoying habit of attacking her in the middle of the night. Do cat's sleepwalk/get night terrors? Who knows... At any rate, he was a pretty neat cat, but she's better off w/o him since she's got bad asthma and keeping him around wasn't helping it any...

 

Ride on!

 

PS: get pet insurance if you're not prepared to write off your cats when they inevitably attack the snakes in the grass...

[Alex-Corsa]

Oh, great! I'd just written a bit of a blurb about Miles Long's driveshaft, (It was out of alignment by approx. 2 plines, 32* to my calibrated eye. Then the power crashed so I lost it and then one of our stupid F@cking cats decided it would be a *Really* bright idea to try and attack a Brown Snake in the back yard! So it's got bit, and we don't want to loose *another* one so it's off to the vet so we can kiss goodbye to $1,000 there.

Pete

My sympathies for you an your cat,ten days ago someone (according to vet's diagnosis) hit my little 7 month kitten and broke the back leg on top in three pieces.I kissed goodbye 500Eur for the vet.But the worst was the

suffering of the little animal, I would gladly brake this animal beater's bones with my baseball bat anytime.

[pete roper]

Yup, second most venomous snake in the world, and they live in my back yard! Along with Eastern Tigers, which are the 4th most venomous! In fact Bungendore is generally ccepted as being Australia's 'Tiger snake capital'

 

From a site I just googled up

 

"The eastern brown snake is the second-most venomous snake in the world and, with its contentious nature, perhaps the most deadly.

 

They are found in a wide variety of habitats in central and eastern Australia, including savanna woodlands, grasslands and arid scrublands. They mainly eat reptiles and small mammals along with the occasional bird or frog.

 

Unlike fierce snakes (Another name for Taipans, the most deradly of all, we don't get them locally!), eastern browns can be very aggressive. They are fast moving and quick to retreat but will attack when provoked, rearing up in a distinctive "S" shape and striking repeatedly."

 

Getting back to V11's though, Miles' bike had the shaft misaligned by about 2 splines that would be about 32 degrees which is in my book pretty much as bad as it could be. THe result of the is that as the suspension tries to move up and down the whole driveline will try and wind up and down like a great big torsion bar spring. These quite severe forced have to be dealt with somehow and the way the machine dows it is by working the cush drives excessively and in a manner they were never designed to be worked. As the forces load up the shaft it will try to twist, but can't really, so the loads will be transmitted through the teeth of the crownwheel and pinion to the rubber cush drive at the rear wheel and through the pinions of whatever gear the machine is in to the stacked washer and face-cam shock absorber on the input shaft. Neither of these devices are really designed to take these sorts of rapid loading and unloading sinusoidal forces and can't cope so the end result is that these forces decide to try and load up the suspension instead and cause the bevelbox to try and rock first one \way and then the other, forward and back, on the wheel spindle. Every action having an equal and opposite reaction this means that the forces exerted on the cush drives will also be exerted on the bevelbox torque rod. Is it any surprise that miles found that any time he went round a corner on anything other than a constant throttle and hit even the slightest ripple it got 'Kinda Squirrely' rather rapidly?

 

What does worry me is why this is happening so much? Trunnion alignment isn't some sort of little known 'Black Art' it's really simple 1st year apprentice type stuff like understanding why tyres need air in 'em or why engines start to squeak if you don't put oil in 'em. OK, so most motorbike mechanics are dealing with chain drive bikes but there are enough shafties around that they should of been taught this stuff at tech. and *Especially* if they are dealing with something a bit obscure and oddball like Guzzi you'd expect there to be a basic understanding of the peculiarities of the marque.

 

Anyway, it's worth checking just to make sure and if you're having your tyres fitted by a shop not used to Guzzis it's worth mentioning it to the tyre fitter. While on Gregg's bike I disconnected the torque rod bolt to get the shaft to separate with Miles' machine the box twisted on the torque rod (without the bolt being removed.) sufficiently for the shaft to separate. Since this can happen it may well do so during tyre changes and if it does then an unknowing tyre fitter may just stick it back together any-which-way not realizing the significance of the paint marks. so always check and politely inform if you think that whoever is doing the work doesn't understand.

 

Pete

[Alex-Corsa]

Yup, second most venomous snake in the world, and they live in my back yard! Along with Eastern Tigers, which are the 4th most venomous! In fact Bungendore is generally ccepted as being Australia's 'Tiger snake capital'

 

From a site I just googled up

 

"The eastern brown snake is the second-most venomous snake in the world and, with its contentious nature, perhaps the most deadly.

 

Pete

 

That's heavy stuff you got here,What's the name of that little animal which has thorns all over and turns like a thorn ball when it sees a snake? I think you better get some of these in your yard feeding them.

Good recovery to your pet.

 

Since this can happen it may well do so during tyre changes and if it does then an unknowing tyre fitter may just stick it back together any-which-way not realizing the significance of the paint marks. so always check and politely inform if you think that whoever is doing the work doesn't understand.

 

Pete

Which paint marks? how are they supposed to be when alligned?, sorry I can't follow.

[pete roper]

Which paint marks? how are they supposed to be when alligned?, sorry I can't follow.

 

Alex, on the V11's, any of their variants, if you look at the driveshaft you can see the sliding coupling just to the rear of the grease nipple on the shaft itself. This is there to allow for variations in the length of the shaft as the suspension works and as the bevelbox tries to rotate against the torsional forces imposed by the power being applied and on the over-run. On both the *front* part of the shaft and the *rear* part of the shaft on either side of the joint where the bak slides into the front there is a paint line. On asembley these two lines are supposed to point towards each other. This ensures that the trunnions at the front and rear of the shaft are working in the same plane which elliminates the torsional forces on the shaft as those iposed by the front trunnion are cancelled out by those, working in the opposite direction, of the rear trunnion.

 

I've yet to see these paint lines washed off so they must be applied with something fairly robust and indellible. I suppose it's possible if the shaft has been pressure washed a zillion times they might wear off but that's a fairly unlikely scenario.

 

If you don't have a paddock stand simply roll the bike forward until you can see one or both of the lines. If you can only see one on the front or back part of the shaft keep rolling until the other one appears on the other bit. If you find them both and they don't line up it's time to pull your wheel off, swing the bevelbox back until the shaft disconnects front from rear, then one of the parts of the shaft until it can be slipped back together with the lines pointing towards each other.

 

Next time I get one in I'll take some pics if someone can post 'em up for me?

 

Pete

[Gregg]

I noticed an oddity in my back wheel hole when repacking it with grease to re-fit. One of the bearings had split around its circumference ! The break looks fairly old as the surfaces had discoloured - I am now wondering if this damage is due to riding for 3 years with the shaft out of position. I had felt no resisitance in the wheel before taking it off and the inner bearing still turned on its race quite freely - scary stuff !

Some things have not been having a nice time in my rear end -(so to speak).

 

Thanks again Pete for noticing the original problem & inspiring me to do more work and checking on my bike - I may well have been riding into oblivion on my next ride ! I will try to post some photos of the bearing failure tonight when I get home.

Photos of offending bearing is attached on http://greggsguzzi.spaces.live.com/default.aspx?_c02_owner=1

Gregg

[Gregg]

Which paint marks? how are they supposed to be when alligned?, sorry I can't follow.

Alex, a couple of poor photos of the paint marks are now on this link :

http://greggsguzzi.spaces.live.com

Regards

Gregg

[Alex-Corsa]

Alex, a couple of poor photos of the paint marks are now on this link :

http://greggsguzzi.spaces.live.com

Regards

Gregg

 

Thanks for the link, well, I didn't see any shaft photos there.Well I mean I saw the shaf with the marks on top ,but where do they allign to?I guess the 1100i shaft system is different than the V11's AFAIK ,never seen those marks in my bike's shaft. Though I can be sure when I will examine it any time soon.

 

 

 

 

I've yet to see these paint lines washed off so they must be applied with something fairly robust and indellible. I suppose it's possible if the shaft has been pressure washed a zillion times they might wear off but that's a fairly unlikely scenario.

 

 

Next time I get one in I'll take some pics if someone can post 'em up for me?

 

Pete

 

On the shaft of the 1100 there isn't any paint marks. I have one total new as spare, and there isn't any.And then I have a second spare as well that has one mark horisontal accross the shaft.

Well a pic would help though. If you hve any sent them and I'll post them to imageshack

Thanks

[pete roper]

Ahhhh!(sound of penny dropping!) No if yours is an 1100 Sport Corsa the system is different! I'd assumed that the 'Corsa' in your sig indicated 'Nero Corsa' or some such.

 

No. The earlier, pre V11, spineframes use a different system. Your bike has the 10 spline shaft and it uses two separate paird yokes with a single trunnion in each on either end of a separate driveshaft which incorprates the sliding coupling witha a collar and spring arrangement.

 

On those there are no marks! You just have to make sure the trunnions are aligned correctly by eye. This is most easily done wit the shaf off the bike and there is no reason why you cant put your own marks on with correcting fluid or some such fo ease of assembley on the bike.

 

Pete

[Alex-Corsa]

 

On those there are no marks! You just have to make sure the trunnions are aligned correctly by eye. This is most easily done wit the shaf off the bike and there is no reason why you cant put your own marks on with correcting fluid or some such fo ease of assembley on the bike.

 

Pete

 

By turnnions you mean these joinds at the end of the shaft both sides, right?Here is a sample photo of the spare schaft. One end sepperates and second pic have alligned it with the grace nipples which also is flat-flat surface of the joints(turnnions?) Is this (2nd pick) alligned?. Do you mean something like that?

Thanks

[pete roper]

By turnnions you mean these joinds at the end of the shaft both sides, right?Here is a sample photo of the spare schaft. One end sepperates and second pic have alligned it with the grace nipples which also is flat-flat surface of the joints(turnnions?) Is this (2nd pick) alligned?. Do you mean something like that?

Thanks

 

Ahhh. Perhaps I'd better explain the terminology.

 

The shaft and it's universal joints are, obviously, made up of lots of different parts.

 

In the knuckles at either end of the shaft there are a series of pieces. The bridge shaped piece that clamp either to the output shaft of the gearbox or the pinion of the bevelbox and it's companion piece that on the V11's is actually part of the shaft halves but on the earlier spine frames is another very similar or identical bit are reffered to as the 'Yokes' taking their name from their similarity to the bar that oxen have over their shoulders when towing something or the device used by happy, smiling Dutch girls in tourist brochures for carrying pails of milk about!

 

Within this pair of parts there is the actual joint itself. These can be called by several names. The Italians call them Cardan joints, I was bought up to call the Hookes Couplings because like everything else worth knowing about they were invented by an Englishman of that name, (Not! But that's not the point ). The coupling consists of a cross shaped piece, this is the trunnion, and at the end of the arms of the trunnion there are four caps which contain needle rollers which are pressed into the yokes and retained by circlips. The needle rollers work between the cap and the trunnion to allow one yoke to move in a different plane from the other BUT as it does so, it there is only one of them there will be loadings imposed on the yokes as the combined unit turns.

 

The needle rollers in the caps are lubricated by grease, hence the grease nipples, and this is retained in the caps by oil seals on the inner, trunnion end, of the caps. While most people when greasing the couplings simply pump grease in until it blurts out round the eals this isn't actually the way it should be done. By the time it's splurting out it's obviously buggered the seal! Grease should be added only until the seals can be seen to swell a little bit, this DOESN'T require much grease!

 

As previously discussed, if the entire shaft arrangement is assembled correctly the change in angular velocity between the front and rear couplings will cancel each other out. If the couplings are misaligned the forces imposed will be multiplied!

 

For this reason it is important to make sure that the trunnions line up like so

 

 

+------------+

 

Not like so

 

x-------------+

 

V11's have the paint marks to help. On earlier machines I believe one relies on the grease nipples being in line or simply guaging everything up by eye.

 

Pete